tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post5015759889571137825..comments2023-10-17T04:51:08.765-10:00Comments on KauaiEclectic: Musings: Mish-MashJoan Conrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-36940863173791342322008-07-13T11:23:00.000-10:002008-07-13T11:23:00.000-10:00> useful journalism = only what supports the reade...<I> > useful journalism = only what supports the readers bias? <</I><BR/><BR/>I'm assuming you read Jimmy's post and Joan's response carefully, and thought them through thoroughly, and as a result you concluded that Jimmy's post is not useful journalism, and Joan labeled it that purely because it supports her point of view. <BR/><BR/>You did do all that before you posted, right?<BR/><BR/><BR/><I> > Maybe that's why Lois Lane got taken off the Superferr - er - Superman beat. <</I><BR/><BR/>I'm assuming you've researched the history of that situation, and as a result have come to the conclusion that there wasn't another reason -- or perhaps, several reasons -- why Joan was booted by that newspaper. <BR/><BR/>You did research it, right? I mean, you are <I>thinking</I> about this stuff, right? You're not just knee-jerk reacting out of pre-existing prejudices. <BR/><BR/>...Right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-67751503209245595522008-07-13T09:17:00.000-10:002008-07-13T09:17:00.000-10:00useful journalism = only what supports the readers...useful journalism = only what supports the readers bias? Maybe that's why Lois Lane got taken off the Superferr - er - Superman beat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-58452564536357007822008-07-13T06:08:00.000-10:002008-07-13T06:08:00.000-10:00Thanks, JimmyT, for your observations. Now that's ...Thanks, JimmyT, for your observations. Now that's the useful kind of citizen journalism.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-47703040927370736922008-07-12T20:24:00.000-10:002008-07-12T20:24:00.000-10:00great post joan. i'm visiting in santa cruz ca. th...great post joan. i'm visiting in santa cruz ca. there are numerous areas where local residents have parking permits issued to them(there is a fee associated w/it covered by local taxes). parking is allowed by permit only. visitors can purchase day use parking permits. local residents also can receive visitor parking passes per resident for their guests. tourists and visitors have to pay for parking. there are free parking areas away from the high use areas and shuttles are available to get folks where they want to go. its a hassle for sure but it helps manage the impacts, especially in the summer months when visitor counts are high and locals are impacted from folks escaping the inland heat and want to cool off at the beach. if you don't get a permit and get busted for illegal parking you pay through the nose.<BR/>in tahoe, i lived near a state beach access and parking lot. there was a state run kiosk where you had to pay to park during certain times of the day but if you paid your local taxes and provided proof of residency you were issued a sticker that allowed you to park and use the access area unrestricted. it seemed like an equitable scenario for folks wanting to use the parking facilities. could possibly work for kauai. state parks in california are expensive w/day use fees and camping fees collected extensively but you could purchase a year pass good for all parks and recieve reduced camoping fees as well. the national park system also has a similar 'Golden Eagle' pass good for a year and allows free entrance. they used to be $25 a year but have probably gone up. i would be glad to pay a user fee or some hybrid of the systems in place elsewhere if the revenue was used for maintenance, programs or improvements and not dumped into the general fund. just some thoughts from the other side of the pacific. aloha aina,....jimmy tAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-75568236540621617872008-07-11T15:30:00.000-10:002008-07-11T15:30:00.000-10:00> My concern isn't just about traffic, although pa...<I> > My concern isn't just about traffic, although parking there is a mess and I feel for the folks who get 1,400 whooshes past their house daily as those 700 cars go in, and back out. I feel the entire area is overused. Andy K's right: some sort of carrying capacity needs to be set — for all of Kauai, actually. < </I><BR/><BR/>Experience would suggest there is no limit. Not with tourism.<BR/><BR/><I> ...The inherent problem of communities that succeed in attracting so many people is that their very presence destroys the cultural and environmental amenities that made the place special.</I><BR/><BR/>- Hal K. Rothman, <I>Devil's Bargains -- Tourism in the Twentieth-Century American West</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-77024419278533111012008-07-11T15:14:00.000-10:002008-07-11T15:14:00.000-10:00What if it targeted parking, instead of driving. ...What if it targeted parking, instead of driving. In other words, you can only park past Hanalei if you have either a resident's permit, which would come with your car registration, or a visitor's permit which would cost a certain fee, which could be used for maintainence and shuttle services. Additionally, there would be shuttle service, which would cost a nominal amount. This is no different from many cities where resident parking permits are required to park in certain areas, and in fact it's pretty generous since it allows non-residents the option of parking with a fee, or alternately riding a shuttle. <BR/><BR/>The key to cutting down traffic would be to making the visitor permits more costly than parking and riding the shuttle. <BR/><BR/>I think the traffic problem out there affects everyone pretty equally, but most particularly those that live on the highway. I don't see the concern about this being much of a class issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-8918968032697656092008-07-11T14:02:00.000-10:002008-07-11T14:02:00.000-10:00distinguishing between visitors and residents is e...distinguishing between visitors and residents is exactly how you get equal protection problems. You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that it is visitors alone and not visitors <I>and</I> Hawaii residents who are "causing the impact."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-42242231016698475642008-07-11T13:43:00.000-10:002008-07-11T13:43:00.000-10:00No, Anon. 11:06, that's not what I'm saying. I hav...No, Anon. 11:06, that's not what I'm saying. I haven't even said I favor a shuttle. I just explained the history, and the difference between a shuttle system and a gated community. I would not advocate that only residents of a specific neighborhood could drive there; that would be the same as gated. But I would feel fine about distinguishing between visitors -- who are the ones causing the impact -- and Hawaii residents.<BR/><BR/>My concern isn't just about traffic, although parking there is a mess and I feel for the folks who get 1,400 whooshes past their house daily as those 700 cars go in, and back out. I feel the entire area is overused. Andy K's right: some sort of carrying capacity needs to be set — for all of Kauai, actually.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-7321864651478741242008-07-11T12:19:00.000-10:002008-07-11T12:19:00.000-10:00So you're saying it would be cool with you if a ri...So you're saying it would be cool with you if a rich neighborhood along a stretch of beach claimed it couldn't take the traffic and decided that only residents could drive in there and that anyone else who wanted to get to the beach would have to take a shuttle. You're saying you wouldn't raise an eyebrow (much less the roof).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-47913912969937386002008-07-11T12:05:00.000-10:002008-07-11T12:05:00.000-10:00In the comment that said Kealia was "private from ...In the comment that said Kealia was "private from the vegetation line to the highway," I assume they were talking about the Kealia Kai area between Kealia and Donkey beach.<BR/><BR/>I think the "donation" of the land to the county was part of the permitting process that allowed the developer to subdivide the ag land and sell it off as luxury estates. So no donation, no luxury homes without a lot of permitting battles. Of course, it also worked in favor of the county, because the value of that donation represented the 10% local funds that the county used to get the 90% federal funds for the bike path.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-29347206199934678082008-07-11T11:53:00.000-10:002008-07-11T11:53:00.000-10:00While that is a lot of people, an average of 2000 ...While that is a lot of people, an average of 2000 per day (say 700 cars), I don't see any analysis of whether it is a problem. Sure Ke'e is not as deserted as Larsen's, but it's not Waikiki yet, either.<BR/><BR/>One solution would be to open up more beach access (with some parking) between Haena beach park and Ke'e. A few pullouts with space for 20-30 cars and some trails through the forest would open up the nearly-deserted parts of the beach.<BR/><BR/>However, that's just going to spread out the impact. If there really are too many cars, then they should be limited, either through strict parking or possibly a shuttle.<BR/><BR/>For the parking solution, DLNR just needs to figure out capacity and then strictly regulate parking beyond that. No discrimination, except in favor of early risers. Then if traffic is an issue with people having to drive out and back because they didn't get a spot, a shuttle can be considered.<BR/><BR/>If it were just a Haena beach park-Ke'e shuttle, you wouldn't have the isse of resident vs visitor car access, everyone would just take the shuttle since there are few properties out there.<BR/><BR/>The idea, essentially, that state parks should be free (either easy access or monetarily free) for HI residents and not for visitors is a long-running issue. On the face of it, it seems unfair, but how does the county justify charging non-residents for county campgrounds when they're free to residents (when state campgrounds are the same price for both)? I really think the solution (other than an enlightened government budget that would use more tax money to run the parks well) is to have entry fees.<BR/><BR/>With a staggered pay scale, say $5 daily admission and $20 yearly to all parks, you can achieve the same thing. Heck, the national parks do this, so it must not violate equal protection. I think some residents, especially the Kanaka Maoli, will oppose any park access fee on principle, but I also think it is insignificant enough to provide a compromise.<BR/><BR/>I think visitor education is also a big part. If visitors know and understand there's a problem, they'll be more inclined to go along with parking restrictions or shuttles to preserve the quality of the experience for everyone.<BR/><BR/>Then there's the whole question of whether tourism will continue to increase. It seems likely to take a nose dive due to high airfares, and then the problem will resolve itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-35227630784141612222008-07-11T11:30:00.000-10:002008-07-11T11:30:00.000-10:00"But here and in other rural places they take an u..."But here and in other rural places they take an unspoiled place and put a fence around it and call it a park, where they make up so many rules and restrictions that no one goes there any more."<BR/><BR/>caka de toro.<BR/><BR/>The problem is Lydgate and Kealia are now so popular you can barely park a car on busy days. Perhaps oppositional defiant types can't deal with a few rules, but for the most part these parks are overrun with users. Adding facilities expanded their appeal from what I can see.<BR/><BR/>We can all get along. The path is wide enough ata 10-12 ft + verges. Most of the flap is from people who don't want it to exist at all, like Mr. Parx.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-40928829961030542822008-07-11T11:27:00.000-10:002008-07-11T11:27:00.000-10:00The difference is that all people would still be a...The difference is that all people would still be able to go there (unlike a gated community), it's just that some would get to drive and others would have to take a shuttle.<BR/><BR/>As for the prospect of luxury homes at Kealia, I don't think that scenario was too likely. There's very little space between the veg line and the road, and I don't think too many of the fancy pants crowd would want to live right next to the highway.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-44752886528090528052008-07-11T11:06:00.000-10:002008-07-11T11:06:00.000-10:00Let me get this straight. you're talking about res...Let me get this straight. you're talking about restricting access to local vehicles because of the traffic and the outsiders and the crowded beach? Is this the same blog that routinely excoriates others elsewhere on the islands for having roughly the same attitude? What the heck is the difference between this and any other 'gated' mentality"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-31194461972268568542008-07-11T11:03:00.000-10:002008-07-11T11:03:00.000-10:00regarding the path: It is ten feet wide minimum. ...regarding the path: It is ten feet wide minimum. Access is for everyone including people with disabilities and mobility impairments. We need, as a community to learn how to use the path and share as other communities have. Regarding Kealia: The land there was private from the vegetation line to the highway. We could have ended up lined with luxury homes with periodic ten foot wide alleys to the sand. Given reality I like the way it is now with equal access and facilities for families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-83184657000395491202008-07-11T10:57:00.000-10:002008-07-11T10:57:00.000-10:00A shuttle past Princeville is the only way to deal...A shuttle past Princeville is the only way to deal with the issue as the North Shore is already beyond capacity and we don't want a four lane highway to Ke`e. Vehicles can be restricted to locals(Think Yosemite). Princeville may be willing to park cars if there was a North Shore Visitors Center with some commercial activity to make it worthwhile. (Think pragmatically). It would be worth it for a North Shore with out rental cars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-60107401908281410472008-07-11T10:38:00.000-10:002008-07-11T10:38:00.000-10:00A shuttle by itself would not create any equal pro...A shuttle by itself would not create any equal protection issues. Limiting traffic to locals would potentially raise equal protection issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-64186213765519188762008-07-11T10:36:00.000-10:002008-07-11T10:36:00.000-10:00As long as it isn't a pretext to keep people out a...As long as it isn't a pretext to keep people out and ensures equal access to everyone it would probably be ok. But the county can't create what is essentially a private beach for locals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-59527491028542656492008-07-11T10:33:00.000-10:002008-07-11T10:33:00.000-10:00Katy, there's been talk for many years of running ...Katy, there's been talk for many years of running a shuttle past Princeville. I never recall equal protection being an issue, and am not sure why it would be, but the bigger problem was finding a staging area where all those cars would park. It would pretty much have to be P'ville land, and they weren't keen on using it for that.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-29794769397633223862008-07-11T09:31:00.000-10:002008-07-11T09:31:00.000-10:00Anonymous: It seems like there are many places wh...Anonymous: It seems like there are many places where parking is restricted to those with resident permits. Could that, combined with a shuttle, work?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-41510325169600300122008-07-11T09:26:00.000-10:002008-07-11T09:26:00.000-10:00Back in the early 80’s I remember writing a column...Back in the early 80’s I remember writing a column about how they were trying to turn Kealia into a county park and thinking how different it was from the city where a park is a good thing- a little green reserve in the middle of the concrete. But here and in other rural places they take an unspoiled place and put a fence around it and call it a park, where they make up so many rules and restrictions that no one goes there any more.<BR/><BR/>That’s why many of us were so trepidatious over things like the bike path project and Lydgate expansion and the “organization” taking over planning and implementing use restrictions.Andy Parxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15398587036690312685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-40898587193237773202008-07-11T09:17:00.000-10:002008-07-11T09:17:00.000-10:00Katy, I think your idea would raise equal protecti...Katy, I think your idea would raise equal protection problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-55077252847196115802008-07-11T09:07:00.000-10:002008-07-11T09:07:00.000-10:00I mean, "traffic-related."I mean, "traffic-related."Katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09145011324294730195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-68891731838027422392008-07-11T09:06:00.000-10:002008-07-11T09:06:00.000-10:00Joan, has there ever been a serious discussion abo...Joan, has there ever been a serious discussion about creating a "local traffic only" rule past Princeville, or Hanalei? Would it be possible to require those without a resident permit, or some kind of temporary (expensive) visitors' permit to take a shuttle to the end of the road? (I'm thinking about visitors who might be lodging at Hanalei Colony resort or something.) Those little shuttles that the zip line tours use would work, I think, with the bridges. It seems that a shuttle that goes every half hour would sure cut down on the traffic- realted misery over there.Katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09145011324294730195noreply@blogger.com