tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post3768897469872707186..comments2023-10-17T04:51:08.765-10:00Comments on KauaiEclectic: Musings: Getting Away With ItJoan Conrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-45598652776733148672008-11-12T13:32:00.000-10:002008-11-12T13:32:00.000-10:00"burial desecretion apologist"that is a great load..."burial desecretion apologist"<BR/><BR/>that is a great loaded word/phrase (seriously)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-11670015061489287362008-11-12T00:50:00.000-10:002008-11-12T00:50:00.000-10:00> Who says one was decapitated? <> Was ev...<I>> Who says one was decapitated? <</I><BR/><BR/><I>> Was even one busted up? If no then anonymous is full of it. <</I><BR/><BR/>The idea that physical destruction is the only form of desecration of native culture is a typically narrow Western view. It's right up there with the notions that Western laws are the only laws, archaeology is the only authority on prehistory, and money is the only thing that really matters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-80554107224367693662008-11-11T21:24:00.000-10:002008-11-11T21:24:00.000-10:00it was reported at the burial council meeting. why...it was reported at the burial council meeting. why? what are you, the burial desecretion apologist?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-89098865711197976632008-11-11T20:56:00.000-10:002008-11-11T20:56:00.000-10:00Who says one was decapitated?Who says one was decapitated?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-87265377608781896012008-11-11T20:09:00.000-10:002008-11-11T20:09:00.000-10:00One had the head decapitated. That's pretty buss u...One had the head decapitated. That's pretty buss up, in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-11516959724122021802008-11-11T20:05:00.000-10:002008-11-11T20:05:00.000-10:00Was even one busted up? If no then anonymous is fu...Was even one busted up? If no then anonymous is full of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-47610493469148948942008-11-11T19:45:00.000-10:002008-11-11T19:45:00.000-10:00And maybe you can tell us why even one is too many...And maybe you can tell us why even one is too many.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-53831132295988399262008-11-11T14:14:00.000-10:002008-11-11T14:14:00.000-10:00maybe anonymous can tell us how many is "so many"maybe anonymous can tell us how many is "so many"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-38331404217954438752008-11-11T12:20:00.000-10:002008-11-11T12:20:00.000-10:00maybe mike can tell us how so many Iwi were busted...maybe mike can tell us how so many Iwi were busted up during the fieldwork.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-44202773473253216392008-11-11T07:21:00.000-10:002008-11-11T07:21:00.000-10:00"Why, then, did Nancy McMahon say at the last Buri..."Why, then, did Nancy McMahon say at the last Burial Council meeting"<BR/><BR/>You answered that yourself when you said she was CYA. That's all she does in public is lie to save her ass. She casts blame everywhere to keep it off herself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-82420708977721464562008-11-11T07:20:00.000-10:002008-11-11T07:20:00.000-10:00"capping was approved by SHPD, as written in the A..."capping was approved by SHPD, as written in the April 2008 BTP. What happened was the capping was done but the CMU/jackets were NOT installed as it was thought they could potentially disturb iwi"<BR/><BR/>That seems to blow Joan's argument out of the water.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-40087821064876810802008-11-11T07:18:00.000-10:002008-11-11T07:18:00.000-10:00Thanks, Mike, I appreciate your participation in t...Thanks, Mike, I appreciate your participation in this discussion and efforts to clarify. You wrote: "So, capping was approved by SHPD, as written in the April 2008 BTP. "<BR/><BR/>Why, then, did Nancy McMahon say at the last Burial Council meeting: "“I did not approve the capping. I reprimanded the archaeologist for what they did.”?<BR/><BR/>I trust you can understand why this is confusing to the layperson.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-34057242824012879282008-11-11T06:45:00.000-10:002008-11-11T06:45:00.000-10:00Anonymous recently wrote, "Larry said: "This is no...Anonymous recently wrote, "Larry said: "This is not some ancient civilization we are striving to understand, those bones belong to people currently on the planet..."<BR/><BR/>Oh My Gosh! What happened to all the Egyptians? And the people of India! I thought we still had some of them left!"<BR/><BR/>The worldwide movement to get artifacts repatriated is not new and is very well established. We have the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, for example, and Egyptians are certainly demanding that their artifacts be returned. Just google and you'll see how widespread the repatriation demands are, and have been for some time.<BR/><BR/>So yes, people still on the planet are making legitimate claims to get back what was looted from them in the name of "science". And yes, in the name of "archeology." Times have changed. See the articles cited by irk in an earlier comment.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06742098296808508617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-58987296778107600232008-11-11T05:57:00.000-10:002008-11-11T05:57:00.000-10:00Hi again Joan:April BTP states (page 56): "All CMU...Hi again Joan:<BR/><BR/>April BTP states (page 56): "All CMU will occur below surface, with the top of the structure to be capped for permanent preservation." The April 24, 2008 letter from SHPD accepting the BTP states: "...will be encased in CMU or concrete jackets to prevent erosion in open trenches with the tops capped for permanent preservation." So, capping was approved by SHPD, as written in the April 2008 BTP. What happened was the capping was done but the CMU/jackets were NOT installed as it was thought they could potentially disturb iwi...so crew erred on the side of caution and only capped the top.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-1409538047147433492008-11-11T01:09:00.000-10:002008-11-11T01:09:00.000-10:00Larry said: "This is not some ancient civilization...Larry said: "This is not some ancient civilization we are striving to understand, those bones belong to people currently on the planet..."<BR/><BR/>Oh My Gosh! What happened to all the Egyptians? And the people of India! I thought we still had some of them left!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-39591785669092856842008-11-10T23:10:00.000-10:002008-11-10T23:10:00.000-10:00i know:that when mainland archeological scholars c...i know:<BR/>that when mainland archeological scholars come to do surveys they get away with many artifacts and bones, as did this honolulu archaeologist and son of missionaries.<BR/>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081109/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_peru_yale_machu_picchu<BR/>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/01/arts/design/01mach.html?pagewanted=2<BR/><BR/>Larry Bishop got away with selling artifacts from his house in Kilauea Farms, some taken from graves in Peru.<BR/><BR/>brescia's contractor will go away to build on these bones<BR/>http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081110/BREAKING01/81110068Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-39173630709096536592008-11-10T19:44:00.000-10:002008-11-10T19:44:00.000-10:00Anon said: "After reading the plan a few times, i ...Anon said: "After reading the plan a few times, i think the capping was approved...but how the capping was done (not spelled out exaclty in the plan) was the issue. the state and bur council approved that plan with capping"<BR/><BR/>That's not correct. In his comment on the 11-9 post, archaeologist Mike Dega stated:<BR/><BR/><EM>"The accepted BTP called for installing a CMU around each of the 7 burials under/near the proposed residence. A CMU is typically a four-sided structure used to keep burials in place."</EM><BR/><BR/>They didn't do that. They did just a top capping, which was not approved by anyone. And while they were working off a plan that they thought had been accepted, the judge has since ruled that plan was not properly approved bec the burial council wasn't shown the final version that Nancy McMahon signed off on. So the Council did NOT approve that plan, and at its last meeting, in fact, rejected that plan.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-87430455442967054202008-11-10T19:29:00.000-10:002008-11-10T19:29:00.000-10:00"Mostly this is about non-native anti-development ...<I>"Mostly this is about non-native anti-development politics."</I><BR/><BR/>Trick Diversion #42 in the Colonial Top 100:<BR/><BR/>The more we link Native concerns to liberal causes, the more we win.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-33850989760042776692008-11-10T19:23:00.000-10:002008-11-10T19:23:00.000-10:00After reading the plan a few times, i think the ca...After reading the plan a few times, i think the capping was approved...but how the capping was done (not spelled out exaclty in the plan) was the issue. the state and bur council approved that plan with capping and yeah, the laws could use some revision I thinkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-71269032001278495222008-11-10T16:37:00.000-10:002008-11-10T16:37:00.000-10:001) Where the State laws on this bad?I think most e...1) Where the State laws on this bad?<BR/>I think most everyone agrees the law could use some revision, as it’s vague in a number of areas, including the definition of preservation.<BR/>2) Where the County rules on this bad?<BR/>State law has jurisdiction here. However, some of these problems could have been avoided had there been a hearing on Brescia’s plan to build a house in the Special Management Area. But for some reason, Kauai does not require a public hearing on the first house built on a lot in the SMA. <BR/>3) And/or did the State not administer well the rules?<BR/><A HREF="http://kauaieclectic.blogspot.com/2008/09/musings-bon-appetit.html" REL="nofollow">Read this post.</A> <BR/>4) And/or did one (1) or more County-level entities poorly interpret and/or apply the rules?<BR/>I think a number of people, including the Native Hawaiian Legal Corp., would argue that the county has made some missteps, including approving Brescia’s project before the Burial Council had made its decision, but the commission went ahead with the approval. And now that the condition for an approved burial plan still has not been met, they are arguing the county should revoke his permit.<BR/>5) Or did the developer not follow the rules?<BR/>Well, he says he did. But that doesn’t mean he’s the victim in this. There’s a lot more to it. Try <A HREF="http://www.thehawaiiindependent.com/featured/2008/10/06/community-pressure-mounts-on-kaua‘i-burial-council/#more-214" REL="nofollow">read this</A> for more details. <BR/><BR/>So yes, it does seem to be 1-5.<BR/><BR/>As for your sovereignty parallel, independence is not linked to blood quantum. That’s used for determining awards for Hawaiian Homesteads.<BR/><BR/>Still, Anon. 3:32 PM is correct.<BR/><BR/>As for Anon. 4:28 PM, capping is a problem in this case because it wasn't approved by the Burial Council OR the state.Joan Conrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00172330100788007499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-67082555235266477112008-11-10T16:28:00.000-10:002008-11-10T16:28:00.000-10:00The only reason "capping" is a problem in this cas...The only reason "capping" is a problem in this case is because capping occurred. Had capping not occurred then the claim would be that not capping is a cultural affront. Mostly this is about non-native anti-development politics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-48636572049022130662008-11-10T15:51:00.000-10:002008-11-10T15:51:00.000-10:00"Time is on our side."Thanks.So you agree with the..."Time is on our side."<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>So you agree with the "parallel" offered? It is correct? Incorrect?<BR/><BR/>(and "my bad" on the grammatical mishaps on my other post)<BR/><BR/>And I would still love a 1-5 review please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-39089284838367754012008-11-10T15:32:00.000-10:002008-11-10T15:32:00.000-10:00"And I see another sovereignty parallel: As time g...<I>"And I see another sovereignty parallel: As time goes on, there seem to be less and less ethnic Hawaiians of a certain "blood quantum" (ie, clock is ticking as to an important dynamic; you can't have a ethnic Hawaiian sovereignty movement without any ethnic Hawaiians)....similarly, as time goes on, more and more of such sites risk permanent alteration (ie, coastline space, where such unmarked graves often are, is getting eaten up by development)."</I><BR/><BR/>Trick Diversion #1 in the Colonial Top 100:<BR/><BR/>Time is on our side.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-45430019588365946212008-11-10T14:45:00.000-10:002008-11-10T14:45:00.000-10:00I am curious:1) Where the State laws on this bad?2...I am curious:<BR/><BR/>1) Where the State laws on this bad?<BR/>2) Where the County rules on this bad?<BR/>3) And/or did the State not administer well the rules?<BR/>4) And/or did one (1) or more County-level entities poorly interpret and/or apply the rules?<BR/>5) Or did the developer not follow the rules?<BR/><BR/>I suspect # 5) might not generate a objective, well informed answer, but it obviously has to be asked (even though I have it on good information that the guy slaved for ages to get all of the permits, etc that he needed; in other words - he made misrepresentations and the like).<BR/><BR/>I hope not all of 1-5 are to blame. If they are, no wonder the ethnic Hawaiians are angry - that means they are getting the shaft at almost every conceivable level as to unmarked graves (of which I bet 99% hold Polynesian remains).<BR/><BR/>And I see another sovereignty parallel: As time goes on, there seem to be less and less ethnic Hawaiians of a certain "blood quantum" (ie, clock is ticking as to an important dynamic; you can't have a ethnic Hawaiian sovereignty movement without any ethnic Hawaiians)....similarly, as time goes on, more and more of such sites risk permanent alteration (ie, coastline space, where such unmarked graves often are, is getting eaten up by development). <BR/><BR/>Anyways, thanks in advance for a really good answer to 1-5 above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7875069982976812251.post-68427902491695941442008-11-10T12:39:00.000-10:002008-11-10T12:39:00.000-10:00The good will of many individual archaeologists an...The good will of many individual archaeologists and anthropologists notwithstanding, NAGPRA didn't happen because Native Americans were happy with how archaeology and anthropology -- and the laws governing their practice -- have treated native cultural remains. When it comes to SHPO-contracted or supervised CRM, professional societies' standards of conduct are often constrained -- if not de facto pushed aside -- by the politics of money and influence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com