Tuesday, December 8, 2009

Musings: Pondering the Path

It was very cold, dark and starry when I got home last night from the meeting on the Path. It went later than I, or probably most anyone, expected. It was still going when I left, four hours after it had started, and it continued into my dreams.

It was a classic Kauai public meeting, in terms of socializing with old friends and staging interesting side discussions, prompting Alan Murakami of the Native Hawaiian Legal Corp., who had flown in from Oahu, to remark: “I wondered what you did at night, and now I know. It’s better than going out drinking.”

Yes, I replied, and you feel better in the morning.

The meeting, which was very well-attended by at least a couple hundred people, was not, as one snide commenter predicted on yesterday’s post, “a circus.” Well, except for the creepy part where Planning Director Ian Costa and his deputy, Imai Aiu, closed in bouncer-like on a guy who said something to the effect of “you’re a fraud, goddammit,” when deputy county attorney Maunakea Trask was saying there were no burials on the beach.

I and others thought they were gonna yank that guy right out of there and beat the shit out of him, and I wasn’t sure if the cops that moved in behind them were gonna help, or protect the guy. Imai even did the finger wagging in the face bit, before backing off and striding around, nostrils flaring, chest heaving.

Down, boys.

Let’s just say their behavior raised more than a few eyebrows….

The mayor was there, (although Beth Tokioka, unfortunately, was not), and to his credit, he appeared to be listening attentively, which is not an easy thing to do for hours on end.

Still, I couldn’t help but keep returning to a question that one person asked, early on, about why, exactly, we were having this meeting, since the mayor has already come out and said he wants the Path on the beach.

Bernard replied that he had brought in the experts — aka Path planners, and there’s a slew of them, which perhaps partly explains why it will cost $4.2 million to put a strip of recycled plastic on the beach — “because I wanted them to hear you speak and now is the time you folks going speak. I’m not gonna promise you that the decision is gonna be changed, but I want to hear what you folks have to say.”

He then went on to say: “We’re gathering information now” and “we held up this meeting from July so we could gather information.”

OK, so why, then, if you’re gathering information, have you already issued a decision? Which brings us back to the unanswered question of why, exactly, we were having the meeting.

That small matter aside, many of those who spoke were heartfelt and eloquent, hoping to convince the mayor both to change his mind, and not to.

Especially compelling was Val Ako, who was involved in exhuming and reinterring the 87 burials disturbed during construction of Coco Palms. “I don’t want the bike path in that particular location,” he said of the beach route. “It’s full of graves.”

And so, too, it seems, is the area behind Coco Palms.

As he and several others pointed out, including Alan Murakami, who referenced native accounts from kuleana awards as evidence, burials in that area stretch from the fish ponds to the sea.

Especially poignant, and cutting right to the heart of the matter, was Aikane Alapai, who observed: “We have been pushed to all the way of fighting for the sand, one of the smallest tangible things in the world.”

Wailua Beach, particularly coming on the heels of the burials dispute at Naue, is forcing the dominant culture to once again face those persistent, uncomfortable questions: how much, really, does the Hawaiian culture matter? Which Hawaiians are given credibility, and which are ignored? Who makes that call, and how it is justified?

My neighbor Andy and I have had heated discussions about that topic the past two mornings, and more are likely. Because as I see it, what this really comes down to is how exactly does a suppressed culture ever restore itself when that process inconveniences the dominant culture?

Getting back to the meeting, especially telling was one planner’s comment about the spur that’s planned to zig zag up the super steep hillside to the views afforded from atop Kawaihau. “I think this is gonna be a great destination,” he gushed. “Maybe people will even say ‘we did the Kawaihau section of the Path,’ like Lombard Street,” that steep twisty road in San Francisco.

Umm, so much for it not being aimed at tourists….

Especially thought provoking was Sabra Kauka’s comment that “anywhere we go in Wailua we will have an impact, so the question for us all, particularly those with the koko and those with the heart, is where we'll have the least amount of impact. …We came down to the coastal path.”

To which I would say, why, if we know there’s going to be an impact, must we proceed with this section of the Path? Isn’t there an alternative?

As farmer Jerry noted this morning, and the Sierra Club has also pointed out, there is the existing road that runs along the canal behind Coco Palms. Why can’t the Path run on top of it, so nothing new need be disturbed?

This is where Jan TenBruggencate and I disagree, and had an interesting discussion last night. He’s seen beach access disappear over his 50 to 60 years of coastal wanderings, and it’s come largely from development pressure. He worries we’ll lose more unless areas like the Path are set aside to ensure access for perpetuity, so he wants it to be as close to the coast as possible.

I share his concerns about coastal access. But it bother me to think that so many people never even walked along the coast until they had a concrete path to follow. That's really kind of pathetic, because it speaks to the way we've distanced ourselves from nature. Yes, we want to enjoy it, but we don't want to get our feet wet or dirty or devote the attention required to traverse an uneven surface. It’s even more disturbing to think the only way to ensure access is to homogenize it into a ADA-compliant, landscaped ribbon of concrete safe enough for a kid on a tricycle and cluttered with interpretive signs.

I mean, not everybody wants to use the coast in that contrived sort of way. As Jerry and I agreed, go ahead and have your path in urbanized areas like Kapaa and Wailua. But leave the last few bits of wild beach on the northeast side alone, PLEASE. And who is to say that expanding the Path, with its rules and regulations, won’t actually work to reduce beach access? If you’re a person with a dog, you can’t even cross the fricking path to get to the beach in those sections where dogs aren’t allowed. What about if the Path starts to break up or erode and the county closes it for liability reasons? And good luck trying to throw net when you’ve got a stream of joggers and strollers and bikes cruising through. In that way, the Path creates a new kind of development pressure that has the same effect of pushing people away from the beach, especially those who use it for subsistence purposes.

As Jan said, this mayor is sensitized to beach access issues, so let’s make the most of it. I agree. But that doesn’t mean full speed ahead on this expensive, artificial path.

Instead of spending millions on this project, why not start buying up some more easements, or acquiring them through eminent domain? Why not maintain and care for the accesses we have to ensure they’re not lost? Why not stop giving up access ways because of liability concerns? Why not start requiring coastal developers to provide vertical and/or lateral coastal access as a condition of their permits? Heck, they could have started with the Waipouli Resort, that monstrosity built atop burials where the coastal Path won`t actually run along the coast because it and adjacent properties said no, and the county caved in.

It was great to see so many people turn out last night, because as Jan said, it’s really good we’re having this discussion.

Let’s just hope it morphs into a broader fight to support cultural preservation and secure more mauka and makai access, rather than devolves into the usual polarization where we divide ourselves so the developers — and that includes Path planners — can easily conquer us once again.

181 comments:

Anonymous said...

You're wrong about it being a dominant culture against Hawaiian culture thing. What the meeting last night proved is that even the Hawaiians are divided on the path. Very divided. That's not haoles' fault or dominant culture's fault. It's just the way things happen. Part of the community wants something. Part of the community doesn't want it. There's conflict. No matter who is in charge it will always be thus.

Anonymous said...

once again - citizen joe beating the local paper to an interesting story. compliments


"you’re a fraud, goddammit,” when deputy county attorney Maunakea Trask was saying there were no burials on the beach. "

-- too funny!!


see i bet the good that will come of this: there are probably tons of burials all up and down the coast of this island, some .5 miles deep from the ocean, and now more people know that


"Who makes that call, and how it is justified?"

-- central question. agreed


"must we proceed with this section of the Path? Isn’t there an alternative?"

-- well would sure be nice if it connects, and the beach part seemed the best alt


agree w/ 90% of your last 3 para. important article!

garden island? bueller?


dwps

Anonymous said...

"Which Hawaiians are given credibility, and which are ignored?"

Is it that simple?

Anonymous said...

Access to Wailua Beach is not threatened, the county owns that , and the public has always had acess there, and as it's owned by the county, providing access is bogus, this is HYPER ACCESS, where traditional uses end, and we make a transitway instead.
If the county cares so much about access why are they gonna send people over the cliff edge at Larsens?

Anonymous said...

It was a circus last night, with the County clowns stealing the show. From the beginning, with Mayor Bernard addressing the crowd in Hawaiian, then reading a speech written by Asst. Mayor Beth Tokioka, to Maunakea Trask stating that there are no burials on Wailua Beach, and to Doug Haigh being exposed as a liar, it was a wonderful and entertaining circus. Thanks for the show.

Anonymous said...

"If the county cares so much about access why are they gonna send people over the cliff edge at Larsens?"

just follow the other lemmings.

Anonymous said...

1. What, so someone can call someone a fraud in a public meeting and he's not allowed to show anger in response? Man, you put a lot of conditions on receiving a not-so-great government paycheck. BTW - many would see the nostril comment as being racist.

2. So some Hawaiians support and some oppose. And the ones who oppose call the ones who support frauds, or traitors, or sellouts. And they get a bunch of eager-to-please haole lemmings joining the chorus. Sounds familiar. Like the crazy christians bombing abortion clinics because we all know that REAL christians hate abortion and love the death penalty. And apparently REAL hawaiians must hate the path and they know the truth about the area - and of course, their opponents don't have a clue.

3. How easy it is to stand on the sidelines and demonize. To go to a meeting and scold. To wait until 3 years after something is approved and then attack it. Hurry, there might still be time to oppose the 1st Iraq war.

Joan Conrow said...

BTW - many would see the nostril comment as being racist.

Only if they were stupid. It had nothing to do with race. It was all about male posturing.

Anonymous said...

It had nothing to do with race. It was all about male posturing.

Ah. Sexist!

Anonymous said...

"Ah. Sexist!"

LOL LOL LOL

Anonymous said...

The Clowns think they've pulled off another Superferry Caper. Have they? That depends on whether someone carries the weight to the court and wins.

Anonymous said...

"including Alan Murakami, who referenced native accounts from kuleana awards as evidence, burials in that area stretch from the fish ponds to the sea."

But there have been four utility projects that trenched the length of the Wailua Beach along side of and under the highway. A sewrline, a watermain, and two communication line. None of these encountered any burials, suggesting that the burials are actually in a lateral line pareleling the highway in the sandy grounds of Coco Palms.

Anonymous said...

To equate the bike path with the Superferry is to engage in hyperbole of worst kind. The bike path has been through studies and hearings. Maybe the County could have done a better job, but it did not engage in the kind of back room wheeling and dealing that the State engaged in to push the Superferry through.

Anonymous said...

"Let’s just hope it morphs into a broader fight to support cultural preservation.."

Amen.

Anonymous said...

Maunakea Trask and Jung jr are a full blown Saturday Night Live spooof.

Two twits, still wet behind the ears, acting cocky, arrogant and like theyʻre ʻin the leagueʻ. It was really quite sad and sickening at the same time. If they only knew what they look like to everyone theyʻd be wearing a frown of humble pie.
Guess Jung jr is following in footsteps of father to pursue a safe salary because the apple donʻt fall far from the tree when it comes to nothing special in the lawyering skills. Canʻt imagine him in a legal environment that didnʻt have daddy government to nurture his inadequacies.
Same goes for the Trask character.
No wonder this county gets sued so much. And Tagupa. What a prize!

Shaylene was smart cleaning out her department.

Anonymous said...

So, it seems the lack of rationale is becoming more apparent: it doesnʻt matter to these people if there really are burials present.

They will deny it.
And that makes it so.

Anonymous said...

Are burials on that beach? Dig it and settle the debate once and for all....

Anonymous said...

it seems that the question to ask is who will be most disappointed/offended/put out if the decision goes contrary to their desires.
i love the path, use it frequently and am glad the county is investing in it. yet if bernard decides to go mauka i, like many other path advocates, will not shed one tear nor feel betrayed or cry for justice. i will still have access to the beach, still be able to teach my daughter to safely ride a bike or follow her on roller blades. from the lydgate section or from town to donkey beach i can get my yayas out on the path.
but on the other hand, if the mayor decides the path is to be located on the sand, guaranteed there will be hard feelings. there will be valid accusations of cultural insensitivity and that the perpetuation of injustice continues in the modern era and protests.
i doubt if tom noyes or tim bynum will lose much sleep over the path going mauka yet i believe if the path is sited on the sands many folks will point to the path as another example of developers,newcomers and the uncaring allowing for change that is inconsiderate of the past, present or future.

Anonymous said...

Guess what it boils down to, and letʻs be honest now, the californics that have begun to root here have managed to con a lot of people into believing that rollerblading and such is far more important than some ʻinvisibleʻ or ʻimaginaryʻ iwi.

If they only knew what NEW deep and irreconcilable resentments they are bringing upon themselves and their future serenity.

You reap what you sow.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are burials on that beach? Dig it and settle the debate once and for all....

What kind of horse-shit comment is that?

I don't think the same comment would be made to "oh, lets dig us St. Catherine's cemetary to prove there's bones there or Punchbowl on O'ahu.

Cultural insensitivity is right here on this blog comment section

Anonymous said...

"So, it seems the lack of rationale is becoming more apparent: it doesnʻt matter to these people if there really are burials present."

AGREED. AND AS NOTED BELOW:

"But there have been four utility projects that trenched the length of the Wailua Beach along side of and under the highway. A sewrline, a watermain, and two communication line. None of these encountered any burials, suggesting that the burials are actually in a lateral line pareleling the highway in the sandy grounds of Coco Palms."


"if the mayor decides the path is to be located on the sand, guaranteed there will be hard feelings."

-- YES B/ DIGGING AROUND WITH BIG MACHINES AROUND COCO TO MAKE THE PATH ADA COMPLIANT...YA, NO PROBLEM THERE..NUTHIN BACK THERE..


DWPS

Anonymous said...

Isn't there *some* type of compromise placement for a path????

Does not the hwy have a shoulder that the path could be adjacent to along sensitive sections??!???

OR is this just each side digging in and saying "no way" just because the other side wants it their way??????? Too 'invested' to lose face now??!?????

(that btw is the commonmost cause for conflict, fighting, war, etc)

Anonymous said...

A path along the beach would be a great buffer preventing waterfront land owners from planting vegetation out onto the beach.

Anonymous said...

The alternative route probem is solved by "taking" a portion of Coco Palms", making the interior driveway the path, already a wide swath of asphalt, demo the wooden structures for the view plane, and allow the owners to build a reduced sized hotel on the mauka side of the fihponds with room for a cultural center.

Anonymous said...

having the path mauka of the highway is a stupid idea. The path should be along the beach everywhere.

Anonymous said...

"Are burials on that beach? Dig it and settle the debate once and for all...."

"What kind of horse-shit comment is that?"

"I don't think the same comment would be made to "oh, lets dig us St. Catherine's cemetary to prove there's bones there or Punchbowl on O'ahu."

ummm the word "cemetery" should tell you that bones are documented, same at Punchbowl.

Have any been documented on the beach? The comment to dig was meant to say look, if there are bones there, it gives the opposition their proof and makes their argument more believable. If nothing is there, it shows they just cry wolf at everything...

Anonymous said...

there is nothing premature about this 'decision' - it happened years ago, where were the dissenters then?

Alan Murakami said...

What's being lost in the discussion is WHAT the County and SHPD MUST do before it got to this point. SHPD is supposed to be the front line to protecting historic properties, including possible and actual burials. SHPD should have first demanded a vetted and well designed archaeological inventory survey so there would be far less certainty about the size and location of the KNOWN burial site, which historic records describe as stretching from Kapule's Fishpond "to the sea". It should NOT simply say, "oh, no burials have been found in this area." Its legal duty to ferret out this information and attempt to verify it is much more pronounced.

The existence of a KNOWN burial site (Mahunapu`uone) should have been enough for SHPD to require a scientifically sound AIS in the Wailua dune area to see how far makai Mahunapu`uone goes. (The soundness of an AIS is too often disputed due to poor or dubious SHPD oversight). SHPD once again FAILED to follow this duty, leaving the community to suffer from from the resulting infighting and uncertainty (this is an old story).

IF there are iwi kupuna in the path of the path, the County must prepare a draft burial treatment plan to present to the island burial council. With this information, the burial council should take over to determine whether the burial site should be preserved in place or burdened with this bike path. That is how the legal process is designed.

Anonymous said...

"having the path mauka of the highway is a stupid idea. The path should be along the beach everywhere."

Especially those places that are subject to coastal erosion. Think of the job stimulation when the path has to be repaired.

Anonymous said...

"Are burials on that beach? Dig it and settle the debate once and for all...."

This is the same idea ss Mr. Murkami states...scientifically examine the area PRIOR TO designation of the area as THE path route. If burials, let the local burial council decide what to do, not the State folks.

Anonymous said...

"But it bother me to think that so many people never even walked along the coast until they had a concrete path to follow. That's really kind of pathetic, because it speaks to the way we've distanced ourselves from nature."

John Kelly, one of the founders of Save Our Surf, talked about alienation from the environment. At one time, the DOT was thinking of putting a freeway on top of the reefs from Hawaii Kai to Waikiki, which would have destroyed numerous fishing, diving and surfing areas. The director of the DOT basically said, "There's surf spots there?" And this was in the late sixties, early seventies. Thankfully, that project never happened, but think of all that's happened to Hawaii's environment since then.

Anonymous said...

scottgoold wrote on Dec 9, 2009 8:57 AM: (The Garden Island)

" Aloha mutantme ~
You wrote, "I'm from the mainland, but I would never let my personal desires come before another's culture and heritage."

You had better give back most of the American mainland to the native "Indian" tribes and return most of the southwest and west to the Mexicans. Further the US participated in a non-violent coup against native Hawaiians in 1893. Possibly you're suggesting all the islands should be returned to them as well.

This is a complex issue. While I sympathize with the emotional appeal of Kumu Kehau and Aikane Alakai when they say, IT'S ALL THEY HAVE LEFT! -- it's not true. These are bones. Not people. Their spirits and souls of the iwi kupuna have long departed.

What they have left - what we all have left - is our time together as a people - as a nation. We need to move on from the past. There are ways to preserve heritage while marching forward into the future.

Lehua said...

lehua wrote on Dec 9, 2009 10:27 AM:

" scottgoold: Sir, it is obvious that you do not understand the religious and cultural values of the kanaka `oiwi - the native Hawaiian PRACTITIONERS who continue to live and perpetuate our culture - physically and spiritually. This is your selfish Christian opinion and belief that the spirits and souls of iwi kupuna are long departed. Our traditions are different and we have long continued an interdependant relationship with beloved, departed ancestors. Many other belief systems throughout the world parrallel that of the native Hawaiian who continues to practice and live their culture and traditions.

It is a haole mana`o that "we need to move on from the past". Easy to say that if you don't have a long, storied and celebrated history and culture of your own. Native Hawaiians mentioned in this article - Kumu Kehaulani Kekua, `Aikane Alapa`i and Jeff Chandler are dedicated practitioners who continue to teach, share and perpetuate the knowledge, skills and values of our Hawaiian ancestors. They are LIVING examples of our kupuna that are not only Hawaiian by blood quantum. They live and know their culture, their genealogies, history and place names, protocols and more.

Maunakea Trask was totally out of line when he arrogantly rambled how he knows that there are no bones on the beach. The only known burials were mauka of the highway. He disregarded the importance of those iwi kupuna by saying that these burials were only of commoners and not of chiefs as the ali`i were secretly buried in hidden caves. Shame on him. Jeff Chandler, rightfully stood up to tell him that he was out of line and that those details are kapu.

And that is why Section 106 - Federal Law associated with National Historic Properties specifically states that consultation for projects such as this does not occur in public, community meetings. Whether you like it or not, the native Hawaiian perspective was and still is crucial to this project. The problem lies with County, State and Federal authorities and their consultants who failed to comply with the laws. "

Anonymous said...

Whether you like it or not, the native Hawaiian perspective was and still is crucial to this project.

Have you not yet figured out that there is not one monolithic "Hawaiian perspective" but many? You may not simply impose your own views as the one correct perspective. Your views must compete with all the others in the public arena. To say that "Maunakea Trask was totally out of line" is inexcusably arrogant. Why should your views be privileged over all others? And "the Hawaiian perspective(s)" isn't the only one that matters here. Like it or not, all the views of all the people, no matter what race, have validity.

Anonymous said...

" These are bones. Not people. Their spirits and souls of the iwi kupuna have long departed."

Interesting, did you have a conversation with God?

"What they have left - what we all have left - is our time together as a people - as a nation. We need to move on from the past. There are ways to preserve heritage while marching forward into the future."

December 9, 2009 10:09 AM

Then what kind of future will this be if you canʻt even respect a burial?

Move on from the past? So we can move on from the 911 losses? We can move on from Pearl Harbor? We can move on from caskets returning from the Middle East? Because all those tax dollars being pumped into illegal invasions of other countries sure doesnʻt seem like moving on, you idiot.

Or is it ONLY aboriginal/indigenous people that are required to move on?

Anonymous said...

Yes, there are more than one native Hawaiian perspective where the 106 mandate is concerned. But Lehua is right - C/S/F government have not complied. It is a major flaw that has not been adhered to in the process for the BP development.

Oh and BTW, that does NOT apply to community meetings and general public imput.

Anonymous said...

"Two twits, still wet behind the ears, acting cocky, arrogant and like theyʻre ʻin the leagueʻ. It was really quite sad and sickening at the same time. If they only knew what they look like to everyone theyʻd be wearing a frown of humble pie."
Jealous much?
Sounds like your obsessed with them. Easy there, maybe take a cold shower. I think they're both spoken for.

Anonymous said...

And that is why Section 106 - Federal Law associated with National Historic Properties specifically states that consultation for projects such as this does not occur in public, community meetings.

That is completely false. It says no such thing.

Anonymous said...

December 9, 2009 12:47 PM

"Two twits.......

Oh must be one of the twits finally got the nerve to say something.
You prove my point if you think anyoneʻs jealous.

Truth hurts yes?

Anonymous said...

To anonymous.. Ah Joan, you show your true colors.

OH please.
Say something constructive.

Anonymous said...

What do flaring nostrils have to do with race???

Anonymous said...

OH please.
Say something constructive.


Yeah! Call somebody a twit.

Anonymous said...

And that is why Section 106 - Federal Law associated with National Historic Properties specifically states that consultation for projects such as this does not occur in public, community meetings.

That is completely false. It says no such thing.

Response: Hmmm, threatened that you may night have a seat at the table to have your say? Then what is your interpretation of Section 106?

Anonymous said...

And that is why Section 106 - Federal Law associated with National Historic Properties specifically states that consultation for projects such as this does not occur in public, community meetings.

That is completely false. It says no such thing.

Response: Hmmm, threatened that you may night have a seat at the table to have your say? Then what is your interpretation of Section 106?


It says not a single word about consultations or public meetings. Where do you get your information?

Anonymous said...

US document

Public involvement is a key ingredient in successful Section 106 consultation, and the views of the public should be solicited and considered throughout the process.

The regulations also place major emphasis on consultation with Indian tribes and Native Hawaiian organizations, in keeping with the 1992 amendments to NHPA. Consultation with an Indian tribe must respect tribal sovereignty and the government-to-government relationship between the Federal Government and Indian tribes. Even if an Indian tribe has not been certified by NPS to have a Tribal Historic Preservation Officer who can act for the SHPO on its lands, it must be consulted about undertakings on or affecting its lands on the same basis and in addition to the SHPO.

Alan Murakami said...

Here's a quote from the state-funded Archaeological Assessment for the Kuhio highway widening project (June 2007), p. 26-27, documenting a burial site (Mahunapu`uone), stretching from Kapule's Fishpond, on the grounds of the Coco Palms Hotel, "to the sea", an area that could well include the sand dunes along the Mayor's bike path route:

"3.3.3.3 The Burial Ground

References to a burying ground or cemetery are given by both informants in the testimony
for Nawai (LCA 3346). This burying ground was to the south of Nawai’s house lot between the
fishpond and the sea.

Another reference to this same burying ground would appear to be given in the testimony for
the house lot of Maawe, LCA 3302 (see Figure 14). His house lot was south (outside of the
present project area). The Foreign Testimony in support of Maawe’s claim (again from Kaniwi)
asserts that the parcel was bounded “East by burying ground of Mahuapuoni” Again the
consistent directional correction puts this burying ground more properly to the NNE. The Native
Testimony for Maawe’s claim (again from Kaniui) describes the “ko‘olau” boundary of his house
lot as “Mahunapuuone”. Although there is no reference to burials in the Native Testimony for
Maawe’s claim, Kaniui is using a very similar place name. It seems likely that the transcription
of the name associated with this burying ground is more accurate in the Native Testimony with
“pu‘uone” being a clear reference to a “sand dune” and perhaps “huna” referring to the “hidden”
burials there. These names (“Mahuapuoni”, “Mahunapuuone”) for the northern boundary of
Maawe’s house lot are quite similar to the spelling of the place of Nawai’s (LCA 3346) house lot reported as “Mahunapuoni” and “Kunapuuone” It seems likely the burying ground was named,
in present orthography, “Mahunapu‘uone” which may have meant “at the hidden (burial) sand
dunes” ...

While the extent of this burying ground is uncertain in general terms it may be understood as
including an area of low sand dunes between the fishpond and the sea extending north from
Maawe’s house lot to, and possibly into Nawai’s house lot. ..."

Interested in more facts?

Anonymous said...

What the hell is a "US document"?

Anonymous said...

"What do flaring nostrils have to do with race???

-- nothing. was just some strange comment seems



"Interested in more facts?"

-- ya im interested in documents

bet others are too

is that doc online? if so, where?

thanks much


dwps

Anonymous said...

FACT is Mr. M - the entire area was blown out and NO sand existed on the northern end (there is photographic evidence).

FACT - utilities, trenching, sewer lines, and roadway torn out the rest at the south end, GET OVER IT.

Build the path on the beach.

Anonymous said...

"a quote from the state-funded Archaeological Assessment" is by definition out of context. Would love to see the whole document. Agree for once with dpsht: Is it available online?

Joan Conrow said...

Why should I let someone take cracks at me when they're hiding behind anonymity?

Anonymous said...

Is the National Historic Preservation Act even relevant here? Maybe because of Coco Palms!

Anonymous said...

Majority rules, the greater good should prevail.

Build the path on the beach.

Anonymous said...

The County should allow the path to be built on the beach, as it was planned YEARS AGO.

Anonymous said...

Majority rules, built the ala loa, keep the historic trail ALONG the coast.

Anonymous said...

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/uscode/

US Code

land_ said...

Dear Joan,
I tried e-mailing you but it failed. (eastsidegrrl didnt work)?
So I will try this method. This is obviously an emotional debate.
I can understand your hesitation to post comments you find less than complimentary to you. But, to be honest, I think you should at least reconsider posting a truncated version that demonstrates an opposing view, at least regarding the Hawaiian part. I just realized you deleted SEVERAL postings that were in agreement with the original post about racism and I think that's unfair. That was obviously sentiment from more than one person and should be, in the true spirit of civic-journalism, be considered fair game-- especially as you seem to be OK with publishing less-than-complimentary words about others.
And you should, though you might balk at being called racist, realize that what you did was hurtful and give it due reflection. I don't know you personally. But there are many out there who have said you don't listen, and that you have your bottom line figured out before taking opposition into consideration. I actually used to be a fan of yours and this was the first time I felt compelled to write something. I actually am surprised because I was commending you in my mind for at least allowing postings from both sides and now I wonder how much you stack the deck and present a false slate to the world?
You should absolutely take down your posting and smearing of someone else if you're not going to allow for an opposing point of view. Again, I understand your hesitation because, just as I was offended that you put someone's name out there so callously, the same would apply to you. So at least post that which doesn't allude to your writing skill, but your accountability. I ask you this in private, from my personal e-mail. No, my name obviously isn't Land Turtle. But why do you require my full name, etc. for posting when you don't hold others to the same standard who are smearing the reputations of other people all over the place? Seriously, reflect on this. It is, as everyone knows, a small island. So, again, I will try, for posting (and I've deleted portions that I am presuming offended you). Also, please note, I STATE I agree with you, too, btw.

To "what's racist about 'flaring nostrils'"?:

I agree with the interpretation that Conrow's comment was, at worst, racist. At best, it was incredibly insensitive. I also think to maintain credibility, Conrow should be more accurate, less mudslinging, and, quite simply, should apologize.

While she's shown a hypersensitivity to the host culture here, which I AGREE with, she isn't equal when applying sensitivity to any Hawaiian who isn't on her side-- which I DISAGREE with. I think she is ignorant and am disappointed, quite frankly, as I believe it discredits her.

I wonder whether she ever asked the opinions of county members in the audience or rather presumed to know their opinion.

A simple Google search of the terms "racist" and "flaring" nostrils" yields several results alluding to historically suppressed minorities. That kind of speak perpetuates negative stereotypes and she should be more responsible.

I, too, wonder why there was no mention of the aggressive nature of the Caucasian man who was so loud and rude he made at least one person get up and move.

White guy is aggressive? He's just using his Freedom of Speech rights. Hawaiian does it? (A Hawaiian who might not be on the same side as Conrow) He's treated with cheap anthropomorphism that characterizes him with attributes that are monkey- or gorilla-like.

Again. At worst, it was racist. At best, incredibly insensitive.

Anonymous said...

"To which I would say, why, if we know there’s going to be an impact, must we proceed with this section of the Path? Isn’t there an alternative?"

Yes, a more culturally destructive one, yes, pick that one

Anonymous said...

In reply to A. M.
Someone needs to check the TMK's.
Nawai's house, LCA #3346:2, appears to be about 1/2 mile up Kuamoo Rd. and near by is LCA # 3302:1.
I can't find LCA # 3346, another possible location for Nawai's house.
LCA #3302:2 is on the south side of Kuomoo Rd. at by the intersection.
So if you go "north from
Maawe’s house", LCA # 3302:2, you end up on the west side of Coco Palms.
Very confusing...

Joan Conrow said...

Dear Land Turtle,

My email is eastsidegrrrl@yahoo.com. I think you left out one r..

I'm sorry if my post hurt Imai's feelings. I used the phrase "nostrils flaring, chest heaving" because that's what I witnessed, and I reported it because it spoke to how worked up he was.

I felt that he and Ian behaved in a manner that was very intimidating, and extremely inappropriate for professionals at a public meeting. I personally was upset by their behavior, and I told Imai that as he was preparing to leave.

At least four police officers were in the room. Ian and Imai were not needed to maintain order.

I deleted one other comment that referenced the racism because it also contained a personal attack against me. Since I always use my name and am willing to stand behind what I write and take the consequences for it, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect others to be willing to use their name when they level a personal attack against me.

I print opposing views all the time. I welcome them, and meaningful discussions about the issues. I do, however, grow weary of those who just want to trash me and make inane comments — always anonymously, of course.

Anonymous said...

"I, too, wonder why there was no mention of the aggressive nature of the Caucasian man who was so loud and rude he made at least one person get up and move."

Jeff Chandler is Hawaiian and intimidating.

Anonymous said...

There is a LCA # 3306 that may correspond to A.M.'s LCA # 3346.
Still confusing if he has quoted the Assesment correctly.

Anonymous said...

the construction should proceed as planned, along the coast

Anonymous said...

December 9, 2009 7:19 PM
I guess youʻre the land turtle.


Thereʻs plenty of real contentious sites out there in blogola land why do you pick on Joan?
Far as Iʻm concerned, she and her style are darn near perfect.

Grateful for her. Very many of us are.

Donʻt like it...go get your own site.
This one is hers.

Anonymous said...

"Jeff Chandler is Hawaiian and intimidating."
December 9, 2009 8:02 PM

To you. maybe he is. Wonder why is that? Maybe guilty conscience.

Jeff Chandler doesnʻt intimidate me..Iʻm haole (foreigner) and I donʻt know him that well but he seems pretty solid in his views and responses.

I really liked what he did, how he did it and what he said at the meeting. It was powerful, truthful righteous indignation.
And he put some pompous little know-it-all asses in their place.

Anonymous said...

"I felt that he and Ian behaved in a manner that was very intimidating"

touche

Anonymous said...

Joan,
You need to walk that easy alternative by the canal that you and the Sierra Clubers refer to; but, don't try it from the Wailua Houselots side of Coco Palms because there are three residences on private property that block your way to this road that is only from Kuamoo Road to what had been the tennis court area of Coco Palms. As for the Kuamoo entrance, be alert, because that spot is only for pedestrians or bikers who are suicidal. Besides seizing those three properties, the path would need Coco Palms property along that entire route as well. Suggesting this "road" without knowing any of this really damages your, and other's, credibility.

Casey said...

Even though I disagree with your opinions, this is a great post. Whenever people worry about the death of newspapers, I will be encouraged by the great coverage in this thread.

I think the comment by Jan TenBruggencate about the path preserving public access is important and not widely discussed. Thanks for circulating it.

Sorry to see the comments degenerate again. You could restrict anonymous posts in the blog settings...

Anonymous said...

I can't believe it. All these posts over a path on the sand.

I'm sure glad I don't live on that postage stamp sized island (relatively speaking) where such things are "important".

Get a grip.

Dawson said...

"I can't believe it. All these posts over a path on the sand...

Get a grip."


Definition of narrow vision: someone who looks at this issue and sees only a path on the sand.

Get an optometrist.


"I'm sure glad I don't live on that postage stamp sized island (relatively speaking) where such things are 'important'."

I'm glad you don't, too.

Now, if only 20,000 or so residents with your attitude would follow your sterling example, Kaua'i would be a much mellower place.

Anonymous said...

"I'm sure glad I don't live on that postage stamp sized island (relatively speaking) where such things are "important"."

exactly - how divided can a community become over a path?

Anonymous said...

The ala loa was right there before according to historical accounts, what is the big deal?

Anonymous said...

"Jeff Chandler doesnʻt intimidate me..Iʻm haole (foreigner) and I donʻt know him that well but he seems pretty solid in his views and responses."

sista - how many times you seen his behavior in public meetings? scary and intimidating, but mostly just angry.

Anonymous said...

http://www.coasttrails.org/coastlibrary.html

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"The ala loa was right there before according to historical accounts, what is the big deal?"

Stupid ass. What ala loa? Travel was done by foot - no carved out or `ili`ili stone paved pathway. Our ancestors traveled by foot or by canoe. Historical accounts reference travel inland ma uka of Kalepa ridge and up into the valley area where smaller streams and tributaries afforded easy crossing. OR if traveling by foot along the coastal area would cross over the river mouth near the shorline either by foot or by swimming if the river mounth was deeper than usual.

If you are talking post-contact 1800's, the railway, road and bridge came into play then. But it is NOT to be confused with an "Ala Loa."

Anonymous said...

" "Jeff Chandler doesnʻt intimidate me..Iʻm haole (foreigner) and I donʻt know him that well but he seems pretty solid in his views and responses."

sista - how many times you seen his behavior in public meetings? scary and intimidating, but mostly just angry."

December 10, 2009 12:30 PM

So you contend anger is wrong? Like I said, if there is nothing you are guilt ridden about, his anger should fuel and inspire you.
Thatʻs the problem nowadays, nobody shows emotion anymore, especially anger that is appropriate.
Guess youʻre all on those de-humanizing meds, yea?
He had EVERY right to get angry. Even the cops didnʻt budge, just the twits.

kuamo`o said...

Jeff Chandler's action taken the other night is to be commended. Maunakea Trask broke protocol and erroneously discarded the bones of ancestors as "bones of commoners" and not chiefs. Of course, after he denied that they existed in the first place. Maunakea deserved the scolding and it was utterly embarrassing for all of us who are Hawaiian to see him behave this way. Had he been raised with traditional Hawaiian values and protocols of respect he would've known better to speak out of line regarding our ancestors and ali`i. This is between one Hawaiian to the other. And as a lineal descendant of ali`i, Jeff had every right to shut him up.

Anonymous said...

"You might ask why the commoners were buried in the sands and the Ali'i in the mountains in caves, or in special hidden areas, or in certain parts of reefs. That answer is a simple one. As the common people were the back of the land, and the bones and eyes of the land in life, so are they in death. The bones are usually preserved well in the sands, which retains their mana and power, such as a commoner could have."

http://greenwom.blogspot.com/2008/06/local-stuffs-special-protecting-iwi.html

Anonymous said...

"The Trask Ohana settled on Kauai in 1820. Her mother Rose Trask comes from the David Kewiki Trask Ohana one of the founders of the Democratic party in Hawaii. The Halualani Ohana can trace its roots to lineage of King Kamehameha the Great. Ainini Halualani is the great-grandaughter of Kamehameha and her father's mother."

couldn't find a Chandler family link to ali'i

Anonymous said...

kuamo`o said...

"blah, blah, blah,"

December 10, 2009 1:33 PM

wanna try again?

Anonymous said...

build it on the beach

Anonymous said...

"I'm sure glad I don't live on that postage stamp sized island (relatively speaking) where such things are 'important'."

I'm glad you don't, too.

Now, if only 20,000 or so residents with your attitude would follow your sterling example, Kaua'i would be a much mellower place.

======

The last stand for aging hippies and bleeding heart "indigenous peoples" crap.

Just like polar bears on their melting iceburgs.

Only a matter of time, people....

Then we will take over.

Anonymous said...

"And as a lineal descendant of ali`i, Jeff had every right to shut him up."

Not really. Times change. The Reinstated Hawaian Government has free speech in its constitution - and nothing about anyone's descendants trumping that right.

The passing of power via bloodline is so 19th century. Unbelievable that people can seriously tout such notions anymore.

Anonymous said...

Itʻs not so much about the ʻrightʻ of free speech to shut Trask up but the right of respect for oneʻs ancestors, parents or children or whoever.
This has NOTHING to do with politics or geneology for that matter.
Trask was disrespectful. Plain and simple.

JKK119 said...

To anonymous who felt it was so righteous to throw out the Trask family history: Auwe, to you for drying out the bones of those ancestors. Especially on this blog that is filled with insenstive, self-centered ha-`ole. This isn't about free speech. It's about respect of a people, land and culture.

Anonymous said...

JKK119 said...whatever

easy enough to find the information on the web - someone provided inaccurate information (you perhaps)

Anonymous said...

Whenever someone starts telling you its no longer about free speech, they're trying to shut you up. Luckily, there's always free speech.

Anonymous said...

What a zoo Kauai is...like a bunch of ants fighting over a dead cockroach.

Path in the sand!

Get a grip...better still, get a life (one not tied to old bones).

It's the 21st century, for God's sake!

Dawson said...

"It's about respect of a people, land and culture."

Or in the case of the developers, the County and the Anonymous trash-talkers who cheer them on, disrespect.

Anonymous said...

No, it's about what your version of what "respect of a people, land and culture" amounts to.
If you think your version is the only correct one, then you are automatically wrong.

Anonymous said...

"JKK119 said...

To anonymous who felt it was so righteous to throw out the Trask family history: Auwe, to you for drying out the bones of those ancestors. Especially on this blog that is filled with insenstive, self-centered ha-`ole. This isn't about free speech. It's about respect of a people, land and culture."

December 10, 2009 8:41 PM

Isnʻt it great how fast things come around full circle...I guess since Trask has NO qualms about drying out other familiesʻ bones - ask him how it feels, or is he some kind of exception? I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

I guess since Trask has NO qualms about drying out other familiesʻ bones - ask him how it feels

Man! You guys are seriously bedeviled by some superstitions, aren't you.

JKK119 said...

Man! You guys are seriously bedeviled by some superstitions, aren't you.

-- No. It has nothing to do with superstitions you idiot! It is a cultural expression about respecting one's ancestors. Or for that matter, just simple, plain RESPECT. When you come from NO CULTURE it is so easy to criticize and see this as devilish superstitions.

Anonymous said...

Amen. Thatʻs the nail on the head...people that have no culture (americans) are always and the only ones to deny respect for culture.
All over the world for that matter.
That title The Ugly American came about for a reason.

Anonymous said...

No, no

It's a culture of science and inquiry. The same as what got the real hawiians across the Pacific.

Anonymous said...

"When you come from NO CULTURE "

"people that have no culture (americans) are always and the only ones to deny respect for culture."

-- dudes...that dog dont hunt. hope thats not your strongest point


"That title The Ugly American came about for a reason."

-- yes. jealous french people


"It's a culture of science and inquiry. The same as what got the real hawiians across the Pacific."

-- well put


dwps

Kuamo`o said...

Nalani Brun's letter to the GI Newspaper introduces her concerns for her part-time job with a native Hawaiian health org and how the bike path has been their only solution to getting people to exercise. BS. She goes on to say that she grew up on Wailua Beach, oh and how many winters, the waves would eat up the beach, the road and wash everything that was buried there out to sea. Hmmm, not too bright. That also means, the Bike Path/Boardwalk I guess!!! The "findings" of LaFrance Arboleda is moot. Talk to the living cultural practitioners who were part of the process with her who said from the start to stay off of the beach. BTW, Nalani, what you should've told everyone was that your FULL-TIME job as the County's Economic Develoipment Tourism Specialist is the REAL REASON why you support the bike path on the beach! Give me a break.

Anonymous said...

Joan and Kuamo`o

when did this become a slam post - why is the kind of shit talk directed at an individual allowed to be posted?

Anonymous said...

The problem with cultural practitioners is that, if they oppose whatever it is trying to get built then they 'remember' all kinds of bones that just happen to buried right on that spot!

Anonymous said...

WHOHOO!! I'm the 100th commenter!!

We North Americans have more active culture than yogurt.

We don't need lessons on "native beliefs". What we do need to do is give lessons on the fact that we are in the 21st century now.

Anonymous said...

100

pretty good evidence the blog serves some sort of worthwhile purpose


dwps


get some google ads up on this ;)

Anonymous said...

pretty good evidence the blog serves some sort of worthwhile purpose

dwps


Yes, they give dpsht something to do with his long and otherwise uneventful days.

Joan Conrow said...

I don't appreciate my blog being used to promote other sites, dwps.

Anonymous said...

dwps - don't worry, it is still OK to talk smack about people in your community or make outrageous assumptions (see Dawson or Kuamo'o)

- so please, continue.

Anonymous said...

ah. k

did not know that was a big infraction


dwps

John Tyler said...

Dear Joan,

There is a way to stop pot shots being taken in all these posts, and that is if a person is going to feel the need to comment, they need to stand behind their words by signing their name. Anonymity breeds the lowest common denominator gossip and suppressed negativity.

Criticisms become much more honoring when the author has his/her name on it.

That solves 95% of the slings right there.

Anonymous said...

There is a way to stop pot shots being taken in all these posts, and that is if a person is going to feel the need to comment, they need to stand behind their words by signing their name.

That solves 95% of the slings right there.


We know. It also suppresses 95% of all comments (just look at what happened at Got Windmills? when Andy banned anonymous comments) which is why Joan doesn't do it.

Anonymous said...

"Criticisms become much more honoring when the author has his/her name on it."

-- and criticisms on the merits are best, kinda like when hamilton (publicola) ripped into samuel chase. publius, cato, digenis, junius are other examples of anonymity uniquely breeding positive development and concepts

one need only view the local online GI comments section to appreciate the phenomena (as well as, as you noted, some dumb and baseless "pot shots" too)


dwps

Anonymous said...

Getting back to the bike path, I've seen the beach get fairly narrow on the north end of Wailua.

Anonymous said...

It's just a damn path on a damn beach.

Get a life, people!!!!

- Abe Lincoln

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Aloha. As you know I was a speaker at this meeting. I was nan invited entity to the first hearings. At that hearing it was stated that our position was a ma'uka path.

However, when I discovered that the reasoning was to put in on the beach, because the decision from OHA had essentially said that neither places were acceptable, (yes, I know it seemed they flip flopped on that) I know that we couldn't agree to it either way.

These are relatively new developments. As for Native Hawaiians being divided. I was a participant of the vigil, and stayed the night through. There were not just haumana of Native Hawaiian extraction there but a diverse group of cultural practitioners. The Hawaiian Culture has gone global, as anyone involved with it can tell you. I myself, as a true hanai have been a cultural practitioner since I began dancing hula at the age of twelve years old. I have been practicing albeit mostly quietly and unobserved for 35 years.

However it is the Native Hawaiian wisdom of the kupuna and the Kumus that are guiding my opinion on this issue.

If this is meant to be divisive it is not actually dividing anyone. The views and beliefs of all involved are consistent and united. The issue for some, however was amount or volume of cultural sites affected. Some saw that there may be less sites on the beach and then took a "lesser of two evils " approach.

Our coalition, the Laa Aina Coalition which is the PAC arm of our soon to be formed Foundation is having a meeting with the Mayor regarding a "4th alignment".

THis compromise hinges on the purchasing and aquiring of the land of Wailua Nui commonly referred to as "Coco Palms", and involves rerouting the county path to either side of this property line, creating a private path that is less in width and structure and is more of a surface path and bringing it closer to the ma'kai alignment of the new road widening, then carrying on from there. That means it would take to the ma'kai property line within the property and run it along this area, or take a more meandering alignment if necessary to go around iwi.

The issue is once the property is in the hands of those that will be creating the park, the connector path can take any path necessary to go around cultural areas. Since it is not officially the "county path" but a private one, it can reduce its size and simplify its structure and impact.

What this means is no screws digging into the ground or the sand at 13 feet, for a total of 68 postings, as is in the case with the placing of the boardwalk on the ma'kai side.

In fact it was this fact alone that changed a lot of peoples opinions at the meeting that a ma'kai alignment would be extremely intrusive due to the engineering technicalities to place the boardwalk there. In fact, when I read the feelings of the room it was almost overwhelmingly in favor of not putting the path on the ma'kai alignment, after this bit of information was revealed.

The concern of those who want to have a continuous path are addressed with this "4th alignment".

Currently I am working with an engineering program, google earth and several other generating programs to create the plans and details for this. There are many groups involved anxious to see this area turned into a cultural park.

It is my belief that a technical "break" in the path, with a private connector path and right of way through the Waliua Nui lands taking an alignment that works it around any sensitive cultural areas is currently the only logical option and is a win win for everyone.

Expect more on "The Fourth Alignment" issue in the future, as more meetings are being planned on this.

This will be a collaborative effort between many groups and individuals.

If every Halau on the US mainland and Japan gave just 10 dollars to the purchasing of the land, we would have the money in a few months. That is how far the Hawaiian culture has traveled. There is no division. There are only diverse opinions and discourse.

(sorry for the long post again!!)

December 14, 2009 10:28 AM

John Tyler said...

"People protect what they love"--anonymous

It is not just a damn path on a damn beach.

It is a densely populated grave yard at the center of the Hawaiian Spiritual universe.

All Hawaiian Hula halau pay tribute to this island's Wailua region. It means so much more than what people who know little of hula or Hawaiian culture know.

In that light, a conscious, reverent person would bow to the Hawaiian kupuna on this and respect whatever is in honoring that region the most.

An unneeded bike path segment over graves ain't it.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

I also feel I have to add this as well. Jeff Chandler is my OHANA. (He is my keikis uncle by BLOOD) I do not appreciate the smearing of his Inoa. His mother was Auntie Kopeka Chandler, his grandmother was the REVERED Gramma Rachel Mahuiki. Both women were active in protecting the culture of this aina. Both women were elected as "living treasures" Jeff has a very large Ohana. Jeff is of a cheifly line. Those of you who do not know his history or lineage should refrain from besmirking his name in public because it insults his entire Ohana when you do so. How shame to disrespect the memory of Auntie Kopeka and Gramma Rachel this way. You do not know that Hawaiian people revere their ancestors just like other cultures do.

Secondly, when I made those statements about the commoners in the sand (yes, that was my quotes and writings and thoughts. Dont know how they got here), the purpose of those statements was to make a certain point.

It was to prove the value of the iwi. The iwi did NOT have to be ali'i to be important. They had heavy religious and cultural significance even though they were commoners for the exact reason I stated. It is following the Hawaiian religious belief of mana and how it works.

Those bones have as much cultural significance as any ali'i bones would be. They are aumakuas to the people that are living now. It is NOT about the division between commoners and ali'i because there was none. I(f you understood Hawaiian beliefs you would know that fact).

The ali'i and the commoners had a symbiotic relationship neither could live without the others.

The point I was trying to make is that those burials serve an important religious aspect and the reason why people feel connected and drawn to the sands there. Because as they go about their daily activities there they are joined by the 'uhane of their ancestors.

So the value is in a way even more high then that of the Ali'i. Further, it is the Aliis place to PROTECT the 'uhane, and the ohana aumakua of the commoners as well as his or her own.

The Hawaiian civilization is a high and important and complex one. It takes decades of living it, breathing it and studying it to even get an inkling of what it is really all about.
So, please stop being so pilau and hewa and educate yourself and learn something before you start insulting my family members or twisting my words around to support your theories. And any attack on Joan of whom I know personally I am absolutely appalled by. Joan, just do what I do, and not allow anony comments anymore.

Mahalo.

Anonymous said...

"Those of you who do not know his history or lineage should refrain from besmirking his name in public because it insults his entire Ohana when you do so."

HELLO - but it is OK to do it to others of linage. interesting...

Anonymous said...

I also feel I have to add this as well. Jeff Chandler is my OHANA. (He is my keikis uncle by BLOOD) I do not appreciate the smearing of his Inoa. His mother was Auntie Kopeka Chandler, his grandmother was the REVERED Gramma Rachel Mahuiki. Both women were active in protecting the culture of this aina. Both women were elected as "living treasures" Jeff has a very large Ohana. Jeff is of a cheifly line. Those of you who do not know his history or lineage should refrain from besmirking his name in public because it insults his entire Ohana when you do so.

Jeff Chandler's ancestors and family members are completely irrelevant to whether his public statements and actions are worthy of criticism or ridicule. Nobody gets a free pass against public criticism because of who they or their relatives are.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

The issue is one of respect and protocol.
IT IS NEVER OKAY TO INSULT ANYONES GENEALOGY OR LINEAGE. HOWEVER IT IS ALSO HEWA TO NOT LISTEN TO THE KUPUNA OR THE ALII EITHER. THEY WILL CORRECT YOU ON THE SPOT
The commoners did have the right to address the chief, and they could depose him if their needs were not met. The chief could not survive without the people. The people fed him, raised the food and were the standing army when he needed to wage war or defend the ahupua'a. If he did not have their respect he would fight alone, and starve.
So, wither or not you agree that someones lines or genealogy to not prevent someone from being criticized, that is not what I was referring too.
I was referring to comments that were hewa, and pilau. If you do not know what these words mean or what the concepts are then please educate yourself.
Jeff has never given up his chiefly rights as a konohiki, and has conducted himself as a konohiki. A konohiki will fight for his people, sometimes loudly yes. Now the Mayor is himself elected into a konohiki position. It is truly two chiefs discussing the condition and concerns of their people.
That is the truth. You can't change that. When Westerners here ANGER, those who understand the culture hear HA.
People that speak very softly, and sit quietly and then say "I don't care what you say we will do it anyway". That is way more scary and intimidating to me.
Jeff and others will speak on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves, like the uhane and the ohana aumakuas, represented in physical form by the iwi.
Criticism is fine. A chief can take criticism. But the respect of his authority and position is honored, just like our Kupuna whom can do or say anything they wish. That is their right culturally. Jeff is fighting for his people as a proper konohiki.
If he didn't do as he was doing, everyone that knows about such thing would call him a liar and say he has no claim to be a konohiki because he cannot stand up and speak out.
Think of this. When You go to Aeteroa (Maori people in New Zealand) who are connected to Kauai. They approach you, get loud, shout in your ear, stick their toungues out at you, beat there chests, they have tattoos all over their faces they bug their eyes out.
WOW pretty offensive, huh? Intimidating!
But this is how it is in Polynesia. By the way that is a Maori greeting. It is the same with people that get up and chant their geneology or explain where they are from, and why they have the right to speak. It bores the heck out of people from the mainland or western thought.
Enough said. He is of the high cheifly line. His poppa looked like he was Niihauan, and mama was a beautiful Hawaiian woman of strength, and she certainly would have said something had she been in that meeting. And she would have silenced that room, trust me. You wouldn't have heard a peep.
You are all just lucky Gramma Rachel wasn't in that room, either. She would have set a few people straight. And they would have been silent too. That is protocol. That is the line of respect for the alii. This culture is NOT DEAD. I meant it. So respect it. It is alive all around you. You must bend to IT not IT to you!
SO please, while we are discussing these delicate issues, let us not air the bones of anyone. Let us be respectful. If you are not Hawaiian, or hanai, or in any way knowledgable, ask first before you post judgment on what you see and here. You might just learn something.
Aloha. My goal is to educate, not dictate.

Anonymous said...

"The commoners "

-- caste system

no wonder so many tried like hell to get out of hawaii when the ships showed up. nice try tho on the rosy narrative - may work on captive kids at fake schools, but few elsewhere


dwps

Anonymous said...

How bout this for education...we're in the USA now...not "old hawaii".

Chiefs don't mean shit.

Anonymous said...

Anne's rant is adorable.

It doesn't change the facts - those being an EA was done, there was a proper time for comment, all the agencies including OHA provided their two cents and a permit, has been issued.

Get over it.

Anonymous said...

most of us could care less about Mr. Chandler, his ancestry, his linage or his public (government) anger problem. (except, apparently, Anne)

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

So let's try another approach. Lets look at that famous EA, and the determinations by OHA.
Your comment that "
It doesn't change the facts - those being an EA was done, there was a proper time for comment, all the agencies including OHA provided their two cents and a permit, has been issued.", is actually supporting our case, rather then not.
OHA said NO to the ma'uka path. OHA also said NO to the ma'kai path. Essentially OHA said NO to BOTH alignments.
So, my plan of a 4th aligmment is really the only option on the table. It is either that or a break in the path.
Through the entire EA the interviews with knowlegeable people who no far more than some of you posting here stated that there were bones on the beach. In fact they stated it over and over and over again. Not only that, it was actually stated that there were fewer burials on the ma;uka side than the ma'kai side more than once, but that there were still burials there. In fact, one observer said at one point Uncle Larry had re interred a huge pile of bones himself, and they had places a plaque over it, and planted a niu over it, and that no body better disturb that area.
It is stated that all of the cultural experts and resources, most of whom I know personally and have high integrity within the community have said that the entire area is sacred, that it was sacred ma'uka to the beach, that the sands were sacred, that there were burials in the sand, ect.
So how in the world does the determination come up that it is okay to align the path through either course? Why was condemnation proceedings to acquire a logical strip of land through the Wailua Nui lands not considered earlier? Why do we have to point out the fallacies, inadequacies, the inconsistancies and the misreadings of Kimura and associates own report?
So actually no, this is not a done deal. The alignments are still being considered. Right now they are options that can be pursued, because they were selected to be included in the plan. Therefore the engineers work on what is given them in the terms of selected alignments.
The very fact that the engineers had to come up with a "boardwalk", with actual spaces in it, and not a smooth continuous bike path should tell you that the science in this area is pretty clear that the extreme shifting of the sands here and the topography would make a path as planned pretty much un-doable.
So if we look at it from an engineering standpoint, a planning standpoint taking out all of the cultural elements it seems as if the ma'uka path would be the better option.
However, since it is the law here, you must include the cultural elements as well, wh9ich pretty much eliminate either option.
Nothing is ever set in stone. It can be debated, changed, ect. The fact remains, however that if another alignment is necessary there will have to be another EA.
From what I have been told the Feds will only pay for one. That means the money will have to be found elsewhere for another EA, to look at another alignment option that will not compromise burials at either proposed aligmnment.
The rub with this, is that it doesn't matter if you go ahead with either proposed alignment, if you hit bones. All work ceases on that path. A new study must be done. Period.
So either way you are looking at a much longer timetable, with the necessity of another study being done. There really is no choice.
Now for whom should pay for it there are two options. One, any agency or group that was burdened with making a determination and coming up with an insufficient or inadequate conclusion would be responsible for paying for another study due to negligent science or calculations or BMI inadequacies.
Whom that would be in my opinion would have to be Kimura and Associates, or The Historical Review Board, ect. If they refuse, then of course you would probably be looking at class action lawsuits coming from several directions and entities.
aloha.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

So, my plan of a 4th aligmment is really the only option on the table.

Actually, the path on the beach is still on the table.

So how in the world does the determination come up that it is okay to align the path through either course?

Because it is simply not desecration to have a path go over the beach or where burials are.It doesn't desecrate anything. It's silly extremism and a perversion of your own cultural values to insist that it does.

Anonymous said...

"The very fact that the engineers had to come up with a "boardwalk", with actual spaces in it, and not a smooth continuous bike path should tell you that the science in this area is pretty clear that the extreme shifting of the sands here and the topography would make a path as planned pretty much un-doable."

you are REALLY uninformed, not an engineer, and not a geologist, but you keep trying, its cute.

Anonymous said...

"silly extremism"

exactly!

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

May I also just add that the fact that it was stated, by one of the anonymous postings that no one could care less about what was it again? Oh, yes "Anonymous Anonymous said...

most of us could care less about Mr. Chandler, his ancestry, his linage or his public (government) anger problem. (except, apparently, Anne)"


I suppose that is why you hide behind that anony name. Because if the locals in the community knew who you were and how you felt you would be pretty embarrassed and ashamed after a statement like that.

How many of you actually read and understood anything I wrote? I am trying to educate you in your obvious ignorance of the place where you have chosen to live. You are in a different culture. No one represents that more than Jeff. He has enormous respect on this island. I have tried to give you some sort of education yet you cling to your arrogant mainland, western thinking notions.

I really challenge you to repeat all the statements you have made here using your real names. Or better yet, why don't you introduce yourselves to me in person the next time you see me at a public meeting?

I am very interested to see just whom lies behind these statements.
I want you to tell me what makes you so much better. I want you to tell me what gives you the right to disrespect the aina, the culture , the heritage, the beliefs, the core of what makes this place what it is?
Who gives you the right to decide that the opinions of the Indingenous people here mean nothing, and they are nothing?
Who are you?

I am ashamed for you. You are pompous and arrogant.

And let me also say that if anyones name had been dragged through the mud I would defend them.

There is a difference between being insulted, and being corrected.

You, however I believe are a classic coward. I wonder if you have the guts to tell Jeff, or anyone else who thinks as he does, believes how he does and represents what he does exactly what you typed out on your little safe keyboard.

Your racism can rear its ugly head. And that is what it is my friend. It is racism. Racist. Racists disrespect ofther races. They deny the rights of indingenous peoples. They believe there are no chiefs, there are no bones, and there is no culture, or blood, or geneology.

They beleive in a flat earth, and that the moon landing really didn't happen. They believe that the mainland way, the western way is the only way.

They believe that the only way that poeple of color should be running the show is if they tow the line and obey what the white people say.

So, rankly I find your arrogance and condescension appalling.

Shame on you.

No aloha to you. Hewa. Pilau.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

OK kids, class is back in session.

For the Anonymous number 1:

"Because it is simply not desecration to have a path go over the beach or where burials are.It doesn't desecrate anything. It's silly extremism and a perversion of your own cultural values to insist that it does."

Are you serious? I mean are you actually serious? I knew the level of ignorance being displayed by these anonymous posts was high, but I had no idea the intelligence scale was actually so low.

Tell you what then. I think we should have bike paths with 13 foot drilled screws to make nice boardwalks through every singe Christian gravesite on Kauai. After all, think of the scenic beauty! I mean graveyards are so quite and peaceful and lovely.

Our visitors would enjoy the scenic beauty too.

Yes, walking atop the ancestors of the people whom you have so much coomntempt for is probably a highly enjoyable thought to you. That is why we have laws against it.

If your local friends only knew who you really were, making statements like that. You would say that to a Hawaiians face, wouldn't you? One whose family member was buried under your feet as you drilled a hole in the sand. You would wouldn't you? No, you would not. Because you are only brave here.

now as for anonymous number 2:

"you are REALLY uninformed, not an engineer, and not a geologist, but you keep trying, its cute."

Thanks. you are adorable and cute too, in your absolute ignorance.

I hate to disapoint you, but I have been a straight A student, trained under Pila Kikuchi, and my adopted father (The first adoption), was an engineer.

Also, I can understand simple engineering concepts when they are explained to me, and I can see physical science with my own eyes.

You as well are pompous and arrogant. You believe that I am the ignorant one, yet it is you who are clearly showing your lack of simple knowledge.

I await your next post eagerly. Bring it on.

Oh and next time you see me out in public, please introduce yourself as the person who is anonymous who thought I was cute and ignorant so I can thank you for setting me straight with your highly intelligent discourse on the subject.

no aloha.

Anonymous said...

Arlington National Cemetery is criss crossed with roads and walking paths. (Here's a map to educate you). You are over reacting.

Richard said...

Well, I am not an "anon" and I think all this "cultural practitioner" stuff and "chief" stuff and "ancestry is important" stuff is BS.

This is the America now. Not "old hawaii".

Maybe you'll get whatever the Akaka Bill gives you, but that's it.

Anonymous said...

By the way, we're not "idiots" just because we don't submit to your assertions of cultural superiority. We live in a multicultural society here on Kauai. We all make concessions to each others' cultural values, but no one group's values are determinative. We make compromises and concessions every day to accommodate Hawaiian notions of cultural propriety, but we don't let such concerns absolutely dictate how the island is to be run. There are many more points of view to be taken into account.

Anonymous said...

Maybe you all need to re-read the laws of this state beginning with this one - HRS 5.7.5

Over reacting? oh yes she is.

Stop judging others against yourself and your own moral 'Hawaiian' superiority complex.

Anonymous said...

"would probably be looking at class action lawsuits coming from several directions and entities."

-- thats what summary judgment is for...its slayed more than a few pretty weak actions here as of late


"I suppose that is why you hide behind that anony name."

-- i dont want to get beat up


"you cling to your arrogant mainland, western thinking notions."

-- does that include socrates / plato, or just california?



dwps

Anonymous said...

"you cling to your arrogant mainland, western thinking notions."

bet you have a house and a car, indoor plumbing, electricity, and probably a tv and other "western" trappings. Like books.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Ok, let us pick through these comments one by one, in a timely and orderly fashion. I will get to everyone, so don't worry you will not be left out.

By the way I bet Joan is just cracking up reading this stuff.

"Richard said...

Well, I am not an "anon" and I think all this "cultural practitioner" stuff and "chief" stuff and "ancestry is important" stuff is BS.

This is the America now. Not "old hawaii".


I am extremely sorry, but I was laughing so hard I could barely type. Did you REALLY say "THE AMERICA?"

Is that like, "THE IRAQ", and "SUCH AND SUCH AS"? OMG, I am sorry, wait hang on, I gotta wipe a tear from my eye.

Of course you aren't serious with that post right? You are really some comedian friend of mine posting on here to jerk my chain, right?

Wait, hang on, lemme go look at that video again when that silly racist girl was in a beauty pageant and said "The Iraq". HAHA. "The America".

Yeah, this is "The America".

Wait, hang on. Didn't Sarah Palin say she could see Russia from her house? Hmm. I wonder what country you can see from your house. Alabama maybe?

Ok, sorry Richard but you are hilarious. You aren't very intelligent today are you? Why don't you try and make yourself sound intelligent on another day?

Perhaps in 2012 when the end of the world is coming, or whatever. "The America, like and such as".

HAHAHA

Thanks for the humour. I needed it. It made my whole day, Richard. You are just so adorable, and cute. Nice try.

NEXT












"To those who know, no explanation is required. To those who don't know, no explanation is sufficient."

I rest my case. :D

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Ok, now to respond to the anonymous that was right under Richard, "The America".


Anonymous Anonymous said...

"By the way, we're not "idiots" just because we don't submit to your assertions of cultural superiority. We live in a multicultural society here on Kauai. We all make concessions to each others' cultural values, but no one group's values are determinative. We make compromises and concessions every day to accommodate Hawaiian notions of cultural propriety, but we don't let such concerns absolutely dictate how the island is to be run. There are many more points of view to be taken into account."

AH yes, spoken like a person who has obviousely spent many years on the mainland. Poor dear. Did you think you were in Idaho or Nebraska, perhaps?

DO you think I, a person of mixed ancestry who has been here for 35 years does not know that my island is a mixed bag of opinions and culture?

Well, God Bless You for setting me straight on that. Whew, I had no idea. Amazing.

"We make compromises and concessions every day to accommodate Hawaiian notions of cultural propriety, but we don't let such concerns absolutely dictate how the island is to be run. "

I would be fascinated to know just exactly which concessions you make every day to 'Hawaiian notions of cultural propriety.'

Frankly you sound a bit bitter about having to do that. Whatever that is, or whatever you are talking about. What are you talking about? It is very unclear. Care to clarify that, back it up with some logical thought process?

Or can you, too see the Country of Alabama from your hale? Oh excuse me, house. Wouldn't want you to bow to a Hawaiian cultural propriety by forcing you to read a Hawaiian word or something.

"we don't let such concerns absolutely dictate how the island is to be run. "

Of course you don't. Which is why there are so many laws on the books to make sure that people like you cannot get the upper hand over cultural issues and values.

I think the reason all of you are really so racist and upset about all this is because you are not running the show here. And when the bones of Native Hawaiians are found, all work will cease. That this culture is the only thing that drives tourism.

I tell you what,. why don't you try and do tourism in this state without the Hawaiian culture, ok?

Why don't you promote the Caucasion Mainland culture, of say oh perhaps Alabama.

Or maybe just promote the Chinese culture in Hawaii. Or the Philipino culture, or the Irish Culture, or the Dutch Culture, or the Swahili Culture, or the French Culture, or the Timbuktu Culture.

Because I think everyone that is involved with the Hawaiian culture in any way should just go on strike. I;m serious. according to all of you it doesn't matter, its not important, and you don't care about it.

Good. Then don't say "aloha". Don't work in tourism. Do not make your money out of telling Hawaiian stories, or doing little "Hawaiian" things to imnpress your mainland friends. Don't ever take a hula class, or eat poi, or eat anything that was brought here by Polynesians. That includes those delicious apple baanas. That's a no-no for you now. Wouldn't want to impose a Native Hawaiian propriety on you, especially one that might turn sour in your stomach.Dont ever wear a lei. Just ignore anything that is Hawaiian. Make up your own place names for the towns. Don't talk to Hawaiians. According to you they don't matter.

See how far that gets you. Wow, I would LOVE to see that happen some day.

None of you would last an hour doing that.

So it was humourous, cute and funny. But I am utterly bored with your rhetoric.

no aloha

Anonymous said...

"bet you have a house and a car, indoor plumbing, electricity, and probably a tv and other "western" trappings. Like books."

-- haha


"I think the reason all of you are really so racist and upset about all this is because you are not running the show here"

-- agreed. you are running the show, its called comedy caravan


"why don't you try and do tourism in this state without the Hawaiian culture, ok?"

-- um, most people dont come here b/ of culture. they come for climate, beaches, greenery, etc. sorry


"those who are shocked at the faults of others are often full of themselves"


dwps

Anonymous said...

The best you could do with Richard's comment was focus on an inappropriate "the"?

Makes you look pretty sad.

I feel the same way as Richard does and am far from alone.

You use many words to hide the minority stance you hold.

Have fun on your Akaka Bill reservation.

Al & Judy said...

We certainly haven't come to Hawaii for the "culture". We hate Hawaiian music, food, cultural (pagan) practices, etc.

We love the ocean, air, tropical environment.

We've come here for years and now own property on a couple of islands. I'll make a bleedin' fortune in the next development boom with one of them.

Wouldn't mind if it looked like Malibu Beach, though.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Now, children, let us move on to anonymous number three. Don't panic, there are only two more anonymous comments after that I will be applying to. I can keep this up all day. I have a free day today. Tomorrow I am busy. Lucky you.

Now, here is someone who actually has a law for me to look up. Let's do that, shall we? And then we will break it down.

"Anonymous said...

Maybe you all need to re-read the laws of this state beginning with this one - HRS 5.7.5

Over reacting? oh yes she is.

Stop judging others against yourself and your own moral 'Hawaiian' superiority complex."

OK, let's settle in, get comfy and have a look at HRS 5.7.5.

"The Aloha Spirit Law".

Is that the one you were referring to?

Because if it is, I always get such a kick out of that one.

That's the one that says everyone should conduct themselves according to traditional Hawaiian values.

http://www.luckyulivehawaii.com/Aspirit.htm

You can read the Law here.

That must be what the other anonymous was talking about when stated "having to make concessions for the Hawaiian culture, but cannot base the running of the island on that."

This law, from 1986.

It reads:



The Aloha Spirit Law is an existing law "on the books" in Hawai`i. It acknowledges that The Aloha Spirit was the working philosophy of native Hawaiians and was presented as a gift to the people of Hawai`i."



All citizens and government officials of Hawai`i are obligated by law to conduct themselves in accordance with this law, while performing their duties and obligations, as well as in their day-to-day living. Likewise, those visiting our fair islands are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with this Hawaiian law.



[§5-7.5] "Aloha Spirit"



(a) "Aloha Spirit" is the coordination of mind and heart within each person. It brings each person to the self. Each person must think and emote good feelings to others. In the contemplation and presence of the life force, "Aloha", the following unuhi laula loa (free translation) may be used:





"Aloha" means to hear what is not said, to see what cannot be seen and to know the unknowable.



(b) In exercising their power on behalf of the people and in fulfillment of their responsibilities, obligations and service to the people, the legislature, governor, lieutenant governor, executive officers of each department, the chief justice, associate justices, and judges of the appellate, circuit, and district courts may contemplate and reside with the life force and give consideration to the "Aloha Spirit". [L 1986, c 202, §1]


I might also add, that there are TWO official language in this State. One of them is English, and the other one is Hawaiian.

I hate to burst all of your little bubbles, but this state is unique, our people is unique and the culture is unique.

It is even the law that Hawaiian cultural values will be upheld.

Superiority? Hawaiians are not the racists in this state. No one claims to be superior. But unfortunately you are not in Alabama anymore.

Me, overreact? Well, Of course I am. I mean if you say so. Apparently you know me so well you can tell I am overreacting, right?

I know these anonymous posts had to be one of my many friends that is just pulling my leg and trying to give me a good laugh. Because they really are hilarious.

Its better then underreacting or having no reactions at all and being morally dead inside, and having a heart that is composed mostly of dry, drifting sand.

ANd just as some last parting words to you, I just want to say get over it. You are so cute and adorable. You are overreacting.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

keep em coming people, I will be answering each and every one of em

Anonymous said...

Al & Judy said... all kine crap.

Gadfly by any other name is still Gadfly.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

"so much anonymous's so little time...ahh the beauty of racists. They give you so much ammunition . The only comedy show is the pack of racists that seem to have overtaken poor Joan Conrows blog. But I will hold the fort till she comes in.

Lets just have a show of hands, before I continue to beat you all down with logic, reasoning, common sense, intelligence and proper sources of information.

Everybody raise their hand that thinks Sarah Palin is awesome, and you have an autographed copy of her book?

1.Everbody raise their hand who has a confederate flag taped to their wall?

2.Everybody raise their hand who donated to the George W Bush Museum?

3.Everybody raise their hand who thinks the earth is flat?

4.Everybody raise their hand who thinks they really didn't land on the moon?

5.Everybody raise their hand who thinks that Genesis is a science, and should be taught in a science class?

6.Everybody raise their hand who thinks President Obama is a terrorist?

7.Everybody raise their hands who thinks that Africa is a country and not a continent?

8.Everybody raise their hands who can see Russia from their house?

9.Raise your hand if you are a "Birther"

10.Raise your hand if you are a "denier" of the holocaust.

11.Raise your hand if you think those enourmous pieces of ice twice the size of Manhatten breaking off from the ice caps are just Democrats with icepicks?

12. Raise your hand if you are a White Supremacist?

Now, after we have this little show of hands, I can figure out how to answer all you cute and adorable little anonymous's.


OK, you can begin this test......now.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Anonymous said...

"you cling to your arrogant mainland, western thinking notions."

"bet you have a house and a car, indoor plumbing, electricity, and probably a tv and other "western" trappings. Like books."

I love it when racists try to justify their actions by making statements like that.

I am very up on racist philosophies in this country. I read all of their websites and blogs, and I watch all the videos on youtube.

I do this so that I can recognize them even when they are trying to be cleverly subtle about it.

Now, I remember a time when some silly little mainland blonde headed kid just moved to Princeville got onto a public school bus one day and started an argument with all the kids on the bus about how all those kids should treat him like a king because if it wasn't for his rich parents moving here, and good American citizens giving them things like their houses and tv sets they wouldn't even be able to go to school.

Before the kid got pounded, the bus driver, who was native Hawaiian pulled the bus over where there was a phone booth in Anahola, dropped the kid off and told him to call his parents to come and pick him up.

You see, we have heard this argument before here. Does not hold a single drop of water with us.

Next. That was pretty weak.

Anonymous said...

"you cling to your arrogant mainland, western thinking notions."

You cling to your arrogant Polynesian thinking notions. Whatever.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

And the last one I am going to answer, came from some proud people who were happy to leave their names, and the fact that they hate Hawaiian Culture!! WOW. THey must be leaving on the next flight or something. See ya!

Al & Judy said...

We certainly haven't come to Hawaii for the "culture". We hate Hawaiian music, food, cultural (pagan) practices, etc.

We love the ocean, air, tropical environment.

We've come here for years and now own property on a couple of islands. I'll make a bleedin' fortune in the next development boom with one of them.

Wouldn't mind if it looked like Malibu Beach, though.

December 15, 2009 3:09 PM

I am giving these people the RACIST MEDAL OF HONOR for the week. And along with that distinction, their quote will go up on my blog, get emailed to all my friends, go up on my facebook, and I will be twittering it, digging it and maybe even writing a letter all about it to the garden island.

It is such a wonderful post, I think it should be spread around to everyone.

God bless Al, amp, and JUDY!

There is no sense in adding to what is a gem of a all posts.

Now I have a life to go live people. I have answered all of your silly attempts to make me look wrong and you right. It was all extremely weak. GO back to the drawing board and try again.

You are welcome to continue this on my blog if you want to. I will not allow any anonymous posts however.

bye bye now!
no aloha

Anonymous said...

The "culture" thing is working so well that Bresca's house is already built and others came before and more will come after.

The state and county bureaucracy is so inept in this area that the rich builders always win one way or another...with their houses or with their lawsuit earnings.

I should try that "win-win" trick!

I love to see the islands becoming more and more westernized as each year goes by. Enjoy your smugness while you can, "old hawaiians".

Laugh that off.

Anonymous said...

I love to swim in the ocean and look at the pretty fishies. My wife does, too. She can imitate a puffer fish. I don't mind the sewage spills because they're so Malibuish.

Anonymous said...

"We certainly haven't come to Hawaii for the "culture". We hate Hawaiian music, food, cultural (pagan) practices, etc."

We like 'merican shit, like Britney 'n Cheerios 'n Cheetos.

"We love the ocean, air, tropical environment."

That's why I want this place to look like Malibu.

"We've come here for years and now own property on a couple of islands. I'll make a bleedin' fortune in the next development boom with one of them."

So I can buy my wife 'merican shit made it China 'n eat at some chain restaurant that I used to eat at back home.

"Wouldn't mind if it looked like Malibu Beach, though."

Yep, love that brownish water, hazy air and shitty waves. Did I tell you that I love the ocean and air?

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Hmmmm....I wonder if I gave out that medal too soon?

By the way, Al and whomever You are and Judy I kept my promise to you. I have now immortalized your fantastic post on my blog, facebook and twitter.

I am just wondering, are all of you related? I had heard there was a lot of that in "The Alabama", where you people are from?

Sure seems like it.
LOL

Oh and eat your jello. Its getting warm.

Anonymous said...

"Hawaiians are not the racists in this state." BS

are you kidding me - I've met some that would eradicate all white people from this island if they could especially up on the North Shore.

the defensive behavior speaks volumes about you, your logic, your background, and your ignorance.

perhaps all of this makes you feel important, that you are able to speak your mind.

How nice for you, it gives you something to do while you collect what, social security, food stamps, welfare?

Anonymous said...

"before I continue to beat you all down with logic, reasoning, common sense, intelligence and proper sources of information."

-- um, "A" for effort?

most of what i scanned over is at about a high school level (but granted, at a good school, where high SAT scores are common)

its wiki i know, but it covers much:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric

might help


dwps

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

OK, this is a mass response to the last 4 or 5 anonymous's who posted stuff.

You guys crack me up. Seriousely.
Can we get back to the bike path issue now? Or is it time for you people to get back to the asylum?

I told you guys if you want to keep on bashing me, then go to MY blog. This is JOAN CONROW'S blog.

Wow, the stuff you can learn blogging cool.

Oh and thanks for the Wikipidea link. You might want to pass that to Richard. He thought this was "The America".

By the way, I have a question. Are you people even interested in discussing the "musings of the path", or do you people just float all around these blogs and troll?

In the meantime, please as you are leaving the building, extinquish all cigarettes and cigars, pick up your candy wrappers and don't leave gum under the seats.

And don't forget your robes with the weird looking boy scout badges on them, and the funny matching hats.

I have hung them up in the closet for you.

Some day you might want to come out of the closet.

And do not forget to tell the bus driver to drop you off by your doorsteps. Sometimes you people tend to wander around in a daze and not know where you are.

And don't forget to take your meds. You know how strange you anonymous's get when you do not take your meds.

Bye bye now. Be good. And don't forget to wear your bibs. You know you drool on your good clothes if you don't.

ps. I decided that beating everyone down with humour and sarcasm was way more fun after all.

Anonymous said...

Yes, don't forget to take the meds.

G'night, everybody!

Anonymous said...

Someone certainly seems to have a superiority thing about Alabama.

Anonymous said...

for you who were wondering why the newspaper takes longer to get a story out ... it takes less time to post to the internet than it does to print & deliver your paper.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for clearing that up. I always wondered why newspapers we so slow.

DUH!!

I'll bet this gets out faster than if I had written a "letter to the editor" of my local rag.

Nice job being "master of the f---ing obvious"!

Anonymous said...

Anne Punohu appears to believe that the way to respond to those who are insensitive is to become like them; producing her own straw man arguments based on stereotypes and attitude.

Some parts of her posts are more distasteful than the opposition's.

The wisdom of the ages tells us that if we irresistably use the tactics of our enemy; we become our enemy.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

If you find my posts distasteful, as I have stated before take your distaste to MY blog, and stop cluttering up Joan's Blog.

It is only your opinion that my posts are straw man. But then again you agree that the other posts are strawman too. Which sort of negates everyone's posts.

Except yours I guess.

If my posts leave a bad taste in your mouth, do what all of the mainlander's do, then. Put a little sugar in your poi, and swallow. It will still nourish you.

Next time give examples of what is so distasteful. Many people find that things they don't like to hear, or being corrected when they are wrong, or having sarcasm thrown back at them, or calling them on their ignorance can be distasteful.

If this is what you meant by distasteful, then Mahalo for your assessment. I will take that as the highest complement.

:D

Anonymous said...

Poi is distasteful.

Like a potato threw up.

Anonymous said...

Yes, when a potato barfs it is disgusting. Poi generally avoids stomach ailments.

Anonymous said...

If you find my posts distasteful, as I have stated before take your distaste to MY blog, and stop cluttering up Joan's Blog.

Why would anyone go to a different blog to address comments you left on this blog? You are a strange lady.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

The point I was trying to make is, if all everyone wants to do is discuss me, and my posts rather than the issue which is the bikepath and make derogatory statements regarding me, take it to my blog.

Or get your own blog and rip me to shreds all you want on your own blog.

But keep it to the issue and stop drifting off way into left or right field whichever the case may be.

As for being strange, mahalo.

I revel in my strangeness, I embrace it with both arms, and I encourage my strangeness whenever possible.

It is good to know that I have been successful in SOMETHING.

:D

Anonymous said...

Well, you do have a pretty good handle on "strange".

As does many Kauai folks, it appears.

I'm glad I'm on the Big Island where we are not as rabid on these issues.

Maybe because the BI is so big the entire rest of the state can fit into our island 2+ times.

The "rabids" can live far away from the "normals".

Anonymous said...

I know....I know....that "as does" should be "as do" since it refers to a plural entity.

Disneyland should buy Kauai and turn it into "Hawaii Land".

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

So, getting back to the topic at hand, which is "musings on the path", and not "musings on Anne Punohu".....

I went on you tube, and found a collection of videos of Coastal Bike Paths. I found some very interesting facts as I was watching them.

All of them appeared to be concrete surface paths, and almost none of them were actually on top of the beach sand, but on the edge of it, with the sandy areas left undisturbed. There were no large, enormous interpretive signs, nor were there artificial landscaping. Further, they all seemed to meander at times far away from the coast itself, and move through mauka and wooded and grassy areas as well.

THe only one I saw, the Venice/Santa Monica? Torrence one, which is situated on a stationary half mile or so stretch of beach in a straight line for miles on the California coast has a surface path.

It is not a boardwalk screwed into the sands. It has held up since 1960.

They are only now anticipating repairing it. Now, let us remember there are no sacred burials here, it is not a small area with large shifts in sand, and it is not disputed by cultural groups for its inherent sacredness.

Further, it actually seems to be a true communer route and it goes for dozens of miles.

We are not California, that's for sure. But when I took all of these videos together, I began to see that our bikepath was starting to look a bit strange against those other paths.

As my eyes have been opened by actually being able to view videos of people biking these trails from their vantage point, I see that what we have being proposed to us is really not very logical in part.

The most interesting thing I notices is that literally all of the coastal paths did not all go along the coast for one hundred percent of the time, and went on other roads, highways, bridges and backways.

Education is priceless, isnt it?

Dawson said...

I'm glad I'm on the Big Island where we are not as rabid on these issues.

Again, as I asked of your similar post on the "Chipping Away" comments: who, exactly, is this "we" of which you claim membership and knowledge?

Who, exactly, are those in whose name you claim authority to trivialize this issue and to label those discussing it as "rabid?"

Anonymous said...

If the local media and blogs are of any account, it is "we the people"..or the majority thereof.

No one, and I mean no one, raises any kind of a rabid ruckus as do you loons on Kauai.

We LIKE being like the mainland!

We like it...we love it...we want more of it...

I can't wait!

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

"Those who know require no explanation. To those who don't no explanation is good enough".

"The battlefields of idiots are the playgrounds of geniuses".

I suppose this one individual represents the beliefs of all of the people on the big island. What a burden that must be for her/him.I wonder if anyone has informed Tutu Pele that her island wants to be just like the mainland.

I guess the anonymous poster and Pele are not on good speaking terms with each other. Or perhaps, the anonymous poster cannot be heard over the roar of Halema'uma'u.

I suggest 100 proof alchohol, and a big bunch of red Lehua for a hokupu. She might listen to you, then.

And then she can start paving over what is there now so you will have lots of room for your "mainland" over there.

Of course, your house might be in the way, but hey thats progress, right?

You wouldn't want to stop progress, would you? That's not the mainland way.

Have you ever considered the fact that we Kauaians think that you are a loon? I suppose not.

After all, loons don't think. They are birds, with very small brains. They only know how to fly south for the winter. They are pretty to look at however and make a nice sound.

"Sarcasm is the wine of Irony"

OK, now back to the path, people.

Anonymous said...

speaking of loons.

wooooo-eeeeeeeeeeeeeee-ooooooooooooooo!

Anonymous said...

I don't acknowledge pagan volcano gods, nor any other such "deities" of your ilk.

Anonymous said...

Chiefess Kapiʻolani effectively killed off Pele in 1824. Pele now resides with Zeus, Apollo, and the rest in the Home for Retired Pagan Deities where she occasionally totters out onto the porch to smoke a cigarette to the delight of a dwindling group of superstitious believers.

Anonymous said...

And her farts....EEEWWWWW!!!

Apollo says "By Zeus, they stink!!!"

And Aphrodite says "They stink over here, too, with a hot wind!!"

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

I know I shouldn't do it, but..oh heck why not.

So, when you start making fart jokes about other peoples religious dieties and beliefs, how in the world is that associated with the subject matter of this blog?

Are you people truly so juvenile as that? I think it is highly embarassing for you, but then you are all anonymous so I suppose that is a comfort for you.

I certainly hope you are not just a bunch of children posting to this blog of Joans.

Now in defference to Joan, can we please get back on the subject matter at hand?

Do you people even remember it?

Do you all need a cookie and a glass of milk, and maybe a nap?

The subject matter of the blog, is what?

Ok, class raise your hands if you know.

(Anonymous raised his/her hand.)
"Yes, anonymous number 1, do you know what the subject matter of this blogpost is?"

"Yes, its Zeus can make a fart" (giggling is heard.)

"No, anonymous number 1, the subject matter of this blogpost is musings on the PATH. DO you know what a Path is?")

"sure."

"Okay, anonymous number one, lets stick to the subject matter, ok? Then you can take your nap."

Sheesh, the intellectual level of you people is frightening.

Now, one of you, try to make a post about the path. THen we will read it, and maybe comment on it. Try to use your indoor voices. Type carefully and don't hurt yourselves. Ok, you may begin...now.

(No wonder our kindergarten teachers are so stressed out in this state)

"Sarcasm is the wine of Irony"

Anonymous said...

What does "Sarcasm is the wine of Irony" mean?

Anonymous said...

Hey, that's how this board rolls.

You want to enforce strict adherence to the blog topic, do it on your own board.

We always attack the messenger here.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Anonymous said...

What does "Sarcasm is the wine of Irony" mean?
December 17, 2009 12:36 PM
Anonymous said...

Hey, that's how this board rolls.

You want to enforce strict adherence to the blog topic, do it on your own board.

We always attack the messenger here.
December 17, 2009 12:45 PM

OK, to anony number..1. If you have to ask, its way over your head.

anony number 2. Well, in that case, please, by all means attack away. But expect heavy volly's in return.
:D

Anonymous said...

What does "Sarcasm is the wine of Irony" mean?

If you have to ask, its way over your head.


I understand that it is way over my head. That's why I'm asking what it means. I don't know what it means and I want to know. So I'm asking. Please tell me without insulting me further.

Punohu's Politics,Environment and Culture said...

Anonymous said...

" What does "Sarcasm is the wine of Irony" mean?

If you have to ask, its way over your head.

I understand that it is way over my head. That's why I'm asking what it means. I don't know what it means and I want to know. So I'm asking. Please tell me without insulting me further.
December 17, 2009 1:07 PM"

Dear Anonymous:

I am afraid answering your question would severely deflect from the subject matter of this particular blog post. However, I have given a thorough explanation here, if you are interested.
Mahalo

http://punohublog.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-heck-do-those-sayings-mean-class.html

Anonymous said...

"I don't acknowledge pagan volcano gods, nor any other such "deities" of your ilk."

-- no voodoo is good voodoo


"Hey, that's how this board rolls."

-- now that was funny as fuck :)


mainland_mentality

Anonymous said...

It was pretty funny, wasn't it?

This thread die???

It was just starting to get interesting.